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«Дівчата в полоні казали: «Якщо вагітна Мар'яна тримається, то ми й поготів не можемо здатись»

«Пережитий полон — це на все життя. Це ніколи не закінчується, з цим потрібно вчитися жити. Тому реабілітація для звільнених військовополонених необхідна. Вона допомагає повернутися до норми, а військовому — бути ефективним», — розповідає Sestry Мар'яна Мамонова — військова медикиня, яка пів року вагітною провела в російському полоні, а зараз допомагає тим, хто також був у неволі

Kseniya Minchuk

Мар'яна Мамонова. Фото з приватного архіву

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Мар’яна пішла на військову службу в один із підрозділів морської піхоти ще у 2018 році. Там вона познайомилась зі своїм майбутнім чоловіком, військовослужбовцем Нацгвардії. Навесні 2022 року Мар’яна потрапила у полон — на третьому місяці вагітності. Поблажок у зв'язку з її станом росіяни їй не робили. Але саме дитина допомогла їй тоді триматися. Бо «мама не може здаватися».

22 вересня 2022 року Мар’яну Мамонову, яка перебувала на 9 місяці вагітності, обміняли. Це той самий обмін, коли Росії віддали Віктора Медведчука. Разом з нею додому повернулись 214 українських воїнів, які боронили Маріуполь. За 3 дні після повернення з полону Мар'яна народила дівчинку.

Зараз Мар’яні 32. Вона — мама, волонтерка, психотерапевтка й засновниця благодійного фонду, який спрямований на допомогу жінкам, які пережили російський полон. За її словами, допомога жінкам, які пережили російську неволю, стала її місією.

Звільнена. Скріншот з відео

«У полоні лякали, що заберуть у мене дитину й відправлять до дитячого будинку»

Ксенія Мінчук: Розкажіть, як ви відновлювались після полону? Що вам допомогло?

Мар'яна Мамонова: Я народила одразу після повернення з полону. Тому на адаптацію у мене не було часу. А коли дочці виповнився рік і я потроху почала виринати, стало емоційно дуже складно. Бракувало ресурсу на здорове материнство. Я зрозуміла, що мені потрібна допомога і звернулась до психотерапевта. Працюю з ним до сьогодні.

До пережитого в полоні постійно щось повертає.

У мене були сни — жахіття. Я не могла спати. Коли донька вночі прокидалась, ми вмикали нічну лампу для малюків. І тоді вже не могла спати я. Бо в колонії ми постійно спали з увімкненим світлом

У полоні людина витрачає всі свої ресурси на виживання. Ти не аналізуєш, не рефлексуєш — ти виживаєш. А коли виходиш звідти, починаєш усе обдумувати. Неодноразово я ставила собі питання: як я все це пережила? Мабуть, народилась у сорочці.

Разом з тим дитина любить тебе безумовно, і ця любов дуже мотивує на нові звершення. Моя дитина дає мені сили, коли, здається, їх вже геть немає. Приходиш з роботи і хочеться просто лягти камінчиком, але ні — треба погратися з донькою. І незабаром усвідомлюєш, що у цих іграх відновлюєшся.

З донькою

— Як з вами поводились у полоні?

— Спочатку я думала, що мене швидко обміняють, бо я ж вагітна. Але так не сталося. Я дуже переживала, що мене можуть вивезти на територію Росії, де відбувають термін жінки, які вчинили тяжкі злочини. Мене цим лякали — казали, що відправлять туди, я там народжу, у мене заберуть мою дитину, я залишуся в тій колонії, а моє маля відвезуть до дитячого будинку. Цього я страшно боялася. І стала боятися ще більше, коли мене перевезли до лікарні в Донецьку — там я зрозуміла, що такий сценарій реальний. В Оленівці була подібна історія. Жінка хотіла виїхати з Маріуполя, її з місячною дитиною затримали на фільтраційному пункті. Привезли в Оленівку, а дитину вивезли у невідомому напрямку. Іншу вагітну жінку забрали до Таганрогу, повернулася вона вже не вагітною, бо до неї застосовували фізичні тортури.

Я переживала, що страх і адреналін, які я постійно відчувала, вплинуть на здоров'я дитини. Разом з тим моя дитина допомагала мені триматися. Я не мала права здаватися заради неї. «Мама мусить бути сильною», — думала я тоді. Погладжувала живіт, розмовляла з донькою.

У полоні я багато мріяла. Фантазувала, де буду гуляти, як буду пити лате і їсти пончики з вишнями, яких мені надзвичайно сильно хотілося. Я трималася за ці фантазії

Ще я складала в голові список справ, які мені треба буде зробити, коли повернуся з полону. «Ти мусиш повернутися», — говорила я собі щодня.

— Чи є у вас спостереження, чому одні витримують полон, а інші — ні? Маю на увазі психологічно.

— Дуже важливий внутрішній стрижень. Якщо він є, людина витримає. Там, у полоні, постійно тиснуть не тільки фізично, а й психологічно. Наприклад, кожного дня кажуть, що ми нікому не потрібні, про нас усі забули, що Україна не збирається нас обмінювати. «Якби ви були комусь потрібні, вас би уже обміняли», — говорили нам. Але внутрішній голос говорив інше. Що все це маніпуляція. Що це кажуть люди, які на нас напали, які нас вбивають і руйнують життя мільйонів людей. Ненаситні, ненажерливі тирани. Як можна їх слухати? Чи можна очікувати від них правди? Ні. Але коли щодня протягом 2-3 років тобі повторюють одне й те саме, в якийсь момент закрадається сумнів — а, може, вони все ж праві і я дійсно нікому не потрібна?

Мені допомагали підтримка та співпереживання інших ув'язнених. Спільна боротьба підтримувала нас усіх. Без почуття гумору також, напевно, можна було б з’їхати з глузду.

Всі у полоні знали, що я вагітна, намагалися мені допомогти. У мене з'явилися там друзі. Вісім дівчат, яких поміняли нещодавно, приїжджають на реабілітацію до Львова і завжди хочуть мене бачити, просять, щоб я приходила на зустріч зі своєю дитиною: «Хочемо побачити малюка, якого ми підгодовували, коли були з тобою в полоні».

Їм в колонії здавалося, що мені важко. А мені здавалося, що важко їм

Вони дивилися не мене й казали: «Якщо Мар'яна тримається, то ми й поготів не можемо здатися». Я була для них рятувальним кругом.

На волі з дівчатами, з якими була в полоні

«Понад усе звільнені з полону хочуть побути зі своїми близькими»

— Розкажіть про свій фонд, який ви створили, щоб допомагати звільненим бранкам. Кому саме і чим ви допомагаєте?

— Я працюю психотерапевтом у реабілітаційному центрі «Незламні» — з людьми, які пережили полон, і тими, хто має бойові травми. Знаю багатьох спеціалістів, тож зібрати професійну команду мені було нескладно. Обирала колег — як для себе. Важливо, щоб це була емпатична, надійна, високопрофесійна команда.

Мета нашого фонду допомагати жінкам, які пережили полон. Допомагати реабілітуватися: ментально, фізично, духовно. Це робота із психологами, психотерапевтами, у групах — над тим, аби знову відчути себе жінкою та жити щасливе життя. Цей наш напрямок ми назвали Heelme.

Також надаємо допомогу вагітним дружинам військовослужбовців, вагітним ветеранкам і вагітним, які втратили чоловіків на війні. Цей проєкт називається Mommy and baby. Будемо надавати жінкам пакунки для новонароджених дітей. В них буде продукція як для дитини, так і для мами. Бо зазвичай, коли жінки народжують, подарунки приносять для дитини, а про маму забувають. Звернень щодо цих пакунків — близько 3 тисяч.

Для того, щоб отримати допомогу нашого фонду, треба заповнити гугл-форму. Обов'язково треба мати УБД (посвідчення учасника бойових дій, — Ред.), свідоцтво про шлюб (якщо це допомога дружині військового), свідоцтво про народження (якщо це допомога для новонародженої дитини військовослужбовця).

— З якими саме симптомами звільнених доводиться працювати вашим психотерапевтам?

— Мені як психотерапевтці доводиться працювати з різними симптомами. Це неконтрольована агресія, постійне занурення в події минулого, нав’язливі спогади. Звісно, це розлади сну, порушення пам’яті та швидка втомлюваність. Постійне або періодичне відчуття напруги та тривоги. Притуплення або відсутність емоцій.

Досить часто люди, які повертаються з полону, не відчувають радості й задоволення від життя

Це приходить або одразу, або за 3-4 місяці після повернення. Часто у людей розвивається соціальна відчуженість. Іноді навіть асоціальна поведінка. Працювати з усім цим дуже непросто. Але необхідно.

— Що, на вашу думку, треба змінити в українському законодавстві, щоб полегшити життя людей, які повернулися з полону?

— Багато чого треба поміняти. Наприклад, люди, які пережили полон, мають обов'язково проходити реабілітацію. Але ті, хто повертається на службу після полону, на реабілітацію не потрапляють.

Командири, які не пережили полону, не розуміють військових, які пережили. А це не лише складно — це небезпечно. Звільненим обов'язково потрібна додаткова реабілітація. Бо війна — це тригер

Велика проблема — люди повертаються з полону, і їх закривають на карантин у шпиталі, обмежуючи контакт із соціумом. І це чергова травма. Ти приїжджаєш з неволі, а тебе знову закривають. Це як вирвався з одного полону і потрапив до іншого.

Понад усе звільнені з полону хочуть бачити своїх близьких і рідних. Обійняти їх, поговорити, усвідомити, що їх люблять, що за них боролись і чекали. Це дає внутрішній ресурс. Бо це підтвердження того, що ти не дарма тримався. Тільки після того, як люди побули з родиною, їх можна відправляти на реабілітацію. На жаль, зазвичай звільнених полонених одразу закривають у лікарнях, до того ж до них приїжджають спецслужби для допитів. Така процедура ніколи добре не впливає на людину.

З чоловіком і донькою

Пережитий полон — це на все життя. Це ніколи не закінчується. Наслідки залишаються назавжди. Неможливо одним разом це вилікувати. З цим потрібно вчитися жити. Тому реабілітація для людей, які його пережили, необхідна. Вона допомагає людині повернутися до нормального життя, а військовому — бути ефективним.

«У російському полоні перебуває мінімум 400 українок»

— Допомагати жінкам, які повертаються з полону, — дуже відповідальна справа. Але я не боюся цієї відповідальності. Я розумію таких жінок, бо є однією з них. Дуже хочеться дати їм те, чого я не змогла отримати.

Коли минає ейфорія повернення, починається буденне життя, в якому постійно необхідно щось «вигрібати». А ресурсу, сил на це — немає

Наш фонд відрізняється тим, що дійсно знається на реабілітації жінок, які пережили полон. Зараз ми шукаємо інвесторів, а взагалі в моїх планах — автономія. Сподіваюсь на те, що люди зрозуміють важливість нашої ініціативи. Бо ми допомагаємо тим, хто віддав найцінніше — свою свободу задля захисту України.

Ці люди пережили 14 видів тортур із 16 існуючих. Це зламані люди

Ми маємо допомогти їм знову стати цілісними. У російському полоні зараз перебуває близько 400 українок. І це приблизна цифра. Точної цифри не знає, напевно, ніхто.

Дуже багато полонених помирають через тортури, частина переходить на іншу сторону через російську пропаганду чи погрози. Кожного дня ми втрачаємо українців — це катастрофа. Мені б хотілося, щоб більше людей і ініціатив долучалися до обмінів полонених. Закликаю боротися за кожного. Інакше ми програємо цю війну. А ми не маємо права цього допустити.

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A journalist, writer, videographer, content creator and podcast author. She has participated in social projects aimed at raising awareness about domestic violence. She has led her own social initiatives, ranging from entertainment projects to a documentary film about an inclusive theatre, which she independently authored and edited. At «Hromadske Radio», she created podcasts, photo reports and video stories. Since the full-scale invasion of Ukraine, she has begun collaborating with international publications, attending conferences and meetings across Europe to share insights about the war in Ukraine and journalism during these challenging times.

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20 days in Mariupol Volodymyr Nikulin police officer

Volodymyr Nikulin is a policeman from the Main Department of the National Police in the Donetsk region and one of the main figures in the Oscar-winning documentary film «20 Days in Mariupol». He is the very person who enabled Mstyslav Chernov, Evgeniy Maloletka and Vasylysa Stepanenko’s team to escape from Mariupol and transport photo and video evidence of numerous Russian crimes - crossing about 15 checkpoints. In an interview with Sestry, Volodymyr talked about the tricks he used during the evacuation, his collaboration with renowned journalists, and how a packet of biscuits taught him that in life, everything returns: both good and evil.

«It was a blow to me how many of those I knew became traitors»

- I ended up in Mariupol after Donetsk, my home, was captured, - says Volodymyr Nikulin. - I have worked in law enforcement for over 30 years. I worked at the Donetsk Regional Police in 2014 during the epochal events. We were defending the Regional State Administration when there were attempts to seize it. I stayed in Donetsk even when it was almost captured. But in the summer of 2014, my family and I left our home. At that time, it was the only way to continue serving, which is very important to me.

It was especially difficult for me to accept that not all Ukrainian policemen left occupied Donetsk - not all remained loyal to their oath. I knew many of them personally, we served together. And they deliberately chose to become traitors.

Those who stayed in Donetsk switched to the enemy’s side. And those who did not betray ended up in Mariupol.

It is hard to talk about my home in Donetsk. I hope it is still standing. I have already left three homes: in Donetsk, Mariupol, and Myrnohrad. When we left Donetsk, I took nothing with me. I remember my summer mesh shoes, a uniform shirt with short sleeves. I did not even take trousers - I looked for a uniform at the place. But I had loyal comrades and a sense of freedom. Something that was no longer in Donetsk.

Volodymyr Nikulin

In Mariupol, we worked with a reduced team. Out of 120 employees of the regional police department, only 12 remained. When the police force was established, I, as a policeman, went through all the stages of lustration and re-certification. I often travelled to Avdiivka. I was amazed at how people lived there - under shellings. But they lived because there were still the state and freedom. Children played on the playgrounds, shops were open.

My comrade, after being wounded on the frontline, even bought a flat in Avdiivka. That is how much people loved their land and believed in victory

- Did you prepare for the full-scale war?

- In 2021, when we already had information from foreign intelligence that Russia was preparing, we also began our preparations. This helped us a great deal. In 2014, we lost a lot because we were unprepared and could not react quickly. In Mariupol, we did not allow that to happen again. For instance, the Russians did not get hold of any documents or cases when they occupied Mariupol. Nor did they seize any weapons. We had removed everything before the full-scale invasion began. There were also far fewer traitors than in Donetsk. We managed to maintain order as much as possible under such circumstances.

For us, Donetsk policemen, the war did not start in 2022 but in 2014. So, when I was woken at 5 AM on February 24th by my supervisor’s words, «combat alert», I understood everything immediately. It was painful to realise that the entire country was under attack.

«Every morning I prayed: just let the shells miss the building where my family is»

- What do you remember most about the first 20 days in Mariupol?

- I will never forget those days. Later, I will come to terms with them, or perhaps reassess them. But for now, I am still in the midst of the events. Do you hear? We are talking, but at the same time, there are explosions in the background. I am thinking about what to do and where to go after the shelling in Kramatorsk ends. There is no time to think about anything else. But I remember every day and every person who was with me.

The start of the large-scale war stands out in my memory as a creeping feeling of catastrophe. I could feel it in every cell of my body. Then I saw how the city began to be destroyed. The Russians were attacking Mariupol from all sides. We knew they desperately wanted it, but we resisted to avoid repeating Donetsk’s fate.

My wife and daughter decided to stay in Mariupol. My wife said: «I do not want it to be like in Donetsk. I do not want to flee anymore. I want to stay in my own home».

And every morning I would go to work, look at the building where my family remained, and fear that it was the last time I would see it intact

That was the most terrifying thing. Whenever there was shelling and explosions (and they were constant), I would think: «Please, just let it not hit the building where my family is».

As a policeman, I had a lot of work to do. First, I evacuated the documents. Then we gathered weapons, prepared materials for fortifications. And when the assault began, we helped people. The police stayed in the city until the very end. We delivered humanitarian aid, diapers, and found shelter for people. We connected people with doctors. At one point, we were already surrounded in the hospital. Before that, I had brought cookies to this hospital - round ones with fruit filling. And when we were hiding in the basement, the doctors brought us those very same cookies. That is how they came back to me.

Humanitarian aid. Cookies. Mariupol in early March 2022

- Do you regret staying in Mariupol for so long?

- Actually, I regret leaving. I really did not want to repeat the experience of my native Donetsk. Many people remained in Mariupol. They needed help. Mariupol was surrounded, bombed, and attacked. They did not give the locals a chance to leave the city. Everyone in Mariupol was then living on the edge - between life and death. Bombs from planes, missiles, artillery. Houses were burning down. The Russians deliberately destroyed everything to break the resistance.

They even hit the State Emergency Service (SES) headquarters so that rescuers could not help people. People died horrible deaths. For example, they hid in the basement of a building that was hit by shells, and they were buried under rubble. They could not get out. And there was no one to help - the SES was no longer operational. Doctors, under fire, were pulling people out. Heroes. And there are countless such stories. The number of victims was in the tens and hundreds of thousands. Civilians, children... Buried under rubble in basements. Later, the Russians did not bury the dead but simply took them somewhere.

We cannot even imagine what we will face when we liberate Mariupol…

«We looked at each other and understood - from now on, we would stick together»

- Do you remember how you met Mstyslav Chernov, Evgeniy Maloletka, and Vasylysa Stepanenko?

- We met during horrific events - when the Russians bombed the maternity hospital (March 9th 2022).

 A pregnant woman is being carried out from the bombed maternity hospital in Mariupol. Photo: Evgeniy Maloletka/AP Photo

- I was impressed by this team. Mariupol was almost destroyed, and only the locals remained in the city. Then, I saw people with the word "Press" on their vests. They were wearing helmets and bulletproof vests. At first, I thought they were foreign journalists. To be honest, I was genuinely glad to see them. It was a somewhat selfish joy, but I am not ashamed because it gave me hope that what was happening to our city might become known to the world. The Russians are skilled at lying, and I was worried that they would conceal their crimes once again.

At first, I met Mstyslav. He said he was from Kharkiv. I asked: «How did you get here? Do you need any help?» He did not answer. We just looked at each other - and I understood that I would help them. Because it was necessary. Not just for them, but for me too. From that moment on, we were together.

The way they worked impressed me. Professional, precise, fearless. One of the most important tasks was sending the recorded materials. It was almost impossible under those conditions. Firstly, they had already become enemies in the eyes of the Russians. Secondly, there were very few places in the city with internet access. At first, we went to the city centre, where there was a Kyivstar base station. In the film, there are scenes of us arriving there, sitting under concrete stairs, while the Russians were bombing, and Mstyslav was sending the footage from his phone. When that location stopped working, we started going to the National Guard and Marine Corps command post, where there was a satellite network. It was a strategic site - policemen in uniform with guns. When we arrived to send the materials, everyone disconnected from the Wi-Fi at my request. They did not even ask questions. Everyone understood the importance of the information, which later influenced many around the world. In part, it contributed to the military aid we received.

«I did not know whether my smashed car would make it anywhere. But I started the engine - and we set off»

- We fought back as best we could. We celebrated every metre we reclaimed. When we managed to retake even one building, it felt like we had liberated the whole city.

On one side of the city, the Russians launched an attack on Mariupol from a hospital. I remember a sniper shot the head nurse in the neck. On the other side of the city, there was a tank assault. In one of the scenes in the film, a Russian tank hides behind a church. Then it came out and started shooting at buildings where people were sheltering.

A tank firing on civilians while hiding behind a church - that is Russia

I remember the eyes of the people who were hiding with us in the hospital. Among them were many elderly people and women, and they looked at us with pleading eyes, asking us to do something to stop them from being killed. I told everyone to stay away from the windows. I knew that if we tried to resist, we would all be shot. The Ukrainian Armed Forces special unit led us out of the encirclement. They saved us.

- When and how did you realise it was time to leave Mariupol?

- Events were unfolding rapidly. The Russians were not creating humanitarian corridors for Mariupol’s residents. On March 14th, people started trying to escape on their own. Security experts advised the journalists - Mstyslav, Evgeniy, and Vasylysa - to leave immediately. They began searching for ways out. I was not planning to leave Mariupol, but by then, we had become one team. Moreover, their first attempt to leave had failed. I felt that I had to stay with them until the end. So, I told them I would drive them out. And my family too.

Volodymyr’s car, in which the team left Mariupol, 2022

Evgeniy Maloletka’s car, which the team drove into Mariupol on 24 February, was destroyed. My car had been smashed by «Grad» rockets, and none of the windows were intact. But it still moved. I did not know where it would take us. But I started the engine - and we set off. Now, part of my car is in a museum of journalism in Germany.

We took almost nothing with us. Just a small suitcase for my daughter and wife.

My packed things had been sitting in my flat since 2014 - I had never unpacked them

«My tricks worked because the soldiers at the checkpoints were inexperienced»

- We were travelling without knowing the way. I realised that it was not worth taking the main road. I had worked in criminal investigation, so I knew a few things. We headed towards the coast. But before that, we had to avoid the queue of cars in which others were leaving. There were long columns of vehicles waiting to exit. I knew we had to break through before sunset - only then did we have a chance to get the photos and videos out. So, I decided to shock people and suggested the following.

Mstyslav and Evgeniy, wearing helmets and bulletproof vests marked with Press, were running in front of our car. People saw journalists running, were shocked, did not know what was happening, and made way for us. Then Evgeniy sat on the car’s hood. This was also a way of attracting attention, and people let us through. That is how we made our way through the city. It was a huge risk. But the plan worked.

On the way, we passed through many checkpoints. If the Russians had checked even one of our bags, we would have been captured immediately. We had to ensure they did not search us. So, I acted like a detective. I distracted them. For example, at every checkpoint, I pulled out a pack of Marlboro cigarettes. Right in front of the occupiers, I would light up. This caught their attention. Then I would offer them cigarettes. They got distracted and let us through. This was just a small part of how I handled them. But it worked because the soldiers at the checkpoints were inexperienced. They were easier to deceive. It is frightening to think what could have happened if we had been stopped.

I remember a moment when we were driving in the evening without any lights, crossing the frontline. We turned off the headlights. At any moment, the column of vehicles we were moving with could have been shot at. That is how we passed through Polohy. Later, we reached another checkpoint where we were illuminated by a torch. And then I saw a soldier in a Ukrainian uniform. I got out of the car, approached him, and… hugged him. And he hugged me back. Without a word.

After that, we were stopped by the police, who checked our documents and the car. I was so full of adrenaline that I did not understand anything, but I felt a bit of relief. It is truly a miracle that we managed to escape.

- Do you dream of Mariupol?

- Not yet. I think the brain suppresses memories. Dreams happen when there is time for reflection. And I continue to serve in the Donetsk region. Wherever I am, I will continue to do so. Because this is my land…

Photos and videos from the hero’s private archive.

20
хв

«To prevent searches at checkpoints, I acted like a detective», - says policeman from «20 Days in Mariupol»

Kseniya Minchuk
Roman Lutskyi

Poland has submitted a film about Ukrainians, featuring Ukrainian actors, for the Oscars. The drama «Under the Volcano» by Polish director Damian Kocur explores the transformation of a family from tourists to refugees, due to the full-scale invasion. In this film, which premiered in September at the Toronto International Film Festival, Roman Lutskyi, a well-known actor for Polish audiences, starred. He is known for notable theatrical performances, such as «Hamlet» and «Forefathers' Eve (Dziady)» by Maja Kleczewska. Globally, he gained recognition through his lead role in «Reflection», the first Ukrainian film showcased at the Venice Film Festival. Lutskyi has walked the red carpet at this festival twice, and now, he has an Oscar submission.

Scene from the film «Under the Volcano»

«This is my third film about war without combat scenes»

- Damian Kocur once said that we Ukrainians live under a volcano that could erupt at any moment, - said Roman Lutskyi to Sestry. - Under the volcano refers to a neighbouring country, armed to the teeth. In 2014, this «volcano» awakened, and in 2022, it indeed erupted…

- Since «Reflection», you have become a serious dramatic actor. Sometimes, I do not recognise where that cheerful Oleshko Popovich from «The Stronghold» has gone. Your gaze especially has changed. You have also done a drama, «Honeymoon», about a couple's life under occupation, followed by «Under the Volcano» - and everywhere there is war.

- If you have noticed, «Under the Volcano» is already my third war film without combat scenes. People understand what war is like on the front line. But the war within Ukrainian families - Europeans do not see that.

With the onset of the great war, every family had to choose - to stay or to leave. This choice gave birth to numerous conflicts. Even in my family, we argued, deciding what to do next. War provokes micro-wars - within small family universes. It is not just about the combat scenes shown on television.

- And it is precisely about such a war that you tell in each of your films. You are not running on screen with a gun, but you reveal to the world the internal drama Ukrainians go through.

- Yes, this is not action, it is subtler, and that is interesting for me as an actor. 

«The red carpets of Venice - a result of my selectivity as an actor». Photo by Vira Blanch

«The director did not want to cast me because of my… «actorly» beard»

- Tell us, how did you end up in the film «Under the Volcano» and why director Damian Kocur chose you for the leading male role?

- Oh, it was quite a story. Kocur, a Polish director, is not very familiar with the Ukrainian acting market, so he asked the casting director to gather a list of Ukrainian actors for him. I was on the list, but the director initially dismissed me. As I later learned, Damian said that Roman Lutskyi was too handsome, with that overly actorly beard, and he wanted regular, ordinary people.

I was unaware of this until a friend asked me to help her record a self-tape, also for Kocur - just to stand behind the camera and argue with her on screen, and we did it. Damian saw the footage and asked who was that person behind the camera arguing so convincingly - saying he wanted the guy behind the camera. I was invited for an interview, and based on that, I was cast in one of the main roles.

- Why did Poland choose to submit the film «Under the Volcano» for the Oscars? It is not about Poles, it is about Ukrainians, and Ukrainians perform in it.

- Perhaps they saw that this particular film is competitive on the international stage and could resonate more strongly than local stories in the context of current events.

It also advocates for Ukraine. We often hear that people are tired of Ukrainians and their war, but it turns out that not everyone feels that way. The world needs to be constantly reminded of this war, and we are grateful to Poland for doing that.

There is only one question: whom should Ukrainians root for at the Oscars now - the Ukrainian film «La Palisade» or the Polish «Under the Volcano»?

In general, this film is for export. We have lived through all of this and understand very well who the enemy is. Meanwhile, the world has not fully grasped the danger of this war. Some still doubt, trying to advocate for the enemy. It is a dangerous game - to wait and not take notice, thinking that Ukraine will protect everyone. The volcano’s effects could be felt by all.

Scene from the film «Under the Volcano»

- Your first film about war was «Reflection», before that, you had not acted in such films. Director Valentyn Vasyanovych plunged you into the horrors of war at its very beginning - in 2014. Captivity, torture, PTSD... How difficult was it to act in such a film?

- As an actor, it was an intriguing challenge. It was crucial that Valentyn Vasyanovych, a deep-thinking director, made this film. The subjects of Ukrainian captivity and PTSD are weighty, and it was important to depict them correctly without exaggeration.

Viewers may have felt uncomfortable watching this film, but we know that the tortures shown in the film are experiences that Ukrainians endure in real life. Since 2014, the «Isolation» prison in the DPR territory has been a terrifying place where our people have been tortured in various ways. The worst part was that the captives did not know if they would ever be released.

I played a military surgeon who ended up in this prison. Immersed in the filming process, I lived alone in an apartment and hardly went out. At that time, I watched many videos on the subject and read numerous books. I tried to come close to that heavy and unpleasant state and to remain in it. To avoid «jumping» into it only when in front of the camera and then coming out after the director called «cut».

Scene from the film «Reflection»

- Great actors, before playing a role, observe people similar to the characters they will portray. How do you prepare for roles - for instance, when playing a person with PTSD after captivity?

- I spoke at length with psychiatrists and with nurses in rehabilitation clinics.

Doctors told me how people walk after captivity - not straight, but curling up into a sort of «question mark», barely lifting their eyes from the ground

I used this technical detail about a captive’s physiology.

The film’s consultant, Stanislav Aseyev - a journalist and author of the book «The Bright Path. The Story of One Concentration Camp» - told me many things. He was a prisoner in the DPR’s «Isolation» concentration camp for 28 months and described in his book the horrors inflicted on captives there. For example, Aseyev explained in detail what a person feels when subjected to electric shock - I reproduced this in the scene where my character is tortured in this way. He described how the current passes through, which muscles contract, and whether it is possible to scream when the current goes from the ear to the hand, causing spasms in the vocal cords.

Scene from the film «Reflection»

- These are very frightening things, but Vasyanovych managed to turn this material into a work of art.

- Yes, everything in Valentyn’s work is very meticulous, dry and without excessive drama. If you noticed, there is no music in «Reflection» because it would only intensify an already terrifying picture.

- You attended the screening of «Reflection» in Venice. How did the European audience respond to the film?

- After the screening, there was prolonged applause. People said that we managed to convey the filth of war through artistic means. This story moved viewers, many people cried. I would add that this film should be watched on a big screen because viewing it on a phone or even a computer does not convey the full range of emotions.

«I learnt Polish from TV by ear»

- Whom would you refuse to portray in films today? Perhaps an evil muscovite?

- Listen, but who should play Muscovites? Should we invite actual Muscovites or what? Many Ukrainian actors are fluent in Russian.

This is a reality because we are a post-colonial country. Just as Lebanese people speak French fluently, or Indians speak English. One actor or another will play a Muscovite. We do not always play likeable characters, that is our lot as actors.

Personally, I do not refuse roles, but I do refuse certain material. If it is superficial or vulgar, flat, and uninteresting, then definitely no. But if the material is deep and relevant, then I would take it on, even if I had to play a villain. The structure of dialogues also matters to me.

- So you would play the role?

- No, because I do not speak Russian. I can talk, but I would have an accent, like representatives of Caucasian ethnic groups.

- Judging by your career, there seems to be a mutual affection between you and Poland. It all started with «Hamlet» in Poznan (2019), where you were invited for the lead role by the iconic Polish director Maja Kleczewska. How did this happen?

- Maja has been following Ukraine since 2013. Initially, she was concerned that our young people were dying on the Maidan, and then in the ATO. When she decided to stage her «Hamlet» at the Polish Theatre in Poznan, she thought it would be interesting if the main character returned not to Danish Elsinore from Wittenberg, but to Poland from Ukraine.

She searched a long time for the lead actor. I missed the initial audition dates, so I simply wrote to the director afterwards, and she arranged a meeting in Warsaw. After the premiere, Maja told me that I was the only one who gave her a satisfactory answer to the question of who Hamlet was.

I told her then that I understood Hamlet - he came to reclaim power because it was unjustly taken, and that is that. It is human, and there is no need to make a philosopher out of him

I also said that we should remember that in Shakespeare’s time, people came to watch this play because it was action-packed - there are so many corpses in the end. So there is no need to seek superhuman qualities or lofty ideals in Hamlet. Certainly, he is of a delicate soul, but above all, he is a human being. Maja and I discussed this for about four hours, she understood my stance on the character. And I was cast in the role.

In the role of Hamlet

- And, judging by the success of Kleczewska’s «Hamlet», Poles accepted you?

- I had long wanted to enter the Polish acting market. Especially since I know Polish - though not intentionally, I learnt it as a child. I can almost perfectly understand it by ear and communicate fairly well.

- How did you learn Polish?

- When I was in the sixth grade, the only TV channels we had in our village were UT-1 and UT-2. In some towns, people could watch other channels, but we only had these, broadcasting from morning till night about how much grain Ukraine had harvested. My father bought a satellite dish from abroad, and I started watching Polish TV - specifically, the channels Polsat and Polsat-2, which featured comedy series like «13 posterunek», «The Kiepski World» («Świat według Kiepskich»), and various sitcoms… It was all so colourful, with interesting storylines.

I became hooked on Polish television and learnt Polish by listening. Later, while working in theatre, I began reading books in Polish and occasionally speaking with native speakers. Right before «Hamlet», the theatre hired me a pronunciation tutor.

- After «Hamlet», Maja Kleczewska staged a production of «Forefathers' Eve» by Adam Mickiewicz at the Ivano-Frankivsk Drama Theatre, and it was reportedly «tailored for you».

- Maja is totally my director. Our collaboration in Poznan was so inspiring for both of us that after «Hamlet», we immediately began planning future projects.

We searched for material for a long time, Maja wanted to work on a piece of Ukrainian literature, and we even discussed «Macbeth». Then the full-scale invasion happened, and Kleczewska decided she would stage «Forefathers' Eve» because, in her view, there is no other anti-Russian dramatic work quite like it in Polish literature.

We chose the third part of this poetic drama, where Mickiewicz describes Polish-Russian relations that very much resonate with what Ukraine is experiencing now in its relations with Russia. Nothing new - this is a universal story for both Poland and Ukraine, as it is fundamentally about a person’s freedom being threatened by a powerful adversary.

- In «Forefathers' Eve», you once again play a prisoner. Well, you play the proud poet Konrad, but the audience perceives you as an Azovstal defender.

- While we were working on the play, we did not even think about captivity. I was very moved when audiences started interpreting the characters on stage as defenders from Azov. After the premiere, a friend told me that when my character Konrad emerged from an imaginary basement or prison for the grand improvisation, she saw it as if an Azov commander was coming out of the trench straight into enemy fire.

Maja Kleczewska's «Forefathers' Eve»

People interpret things in various ways. And that is fantastic because it means the work is multi-layered and rich in meaning. That is precisely what should happen with works of talent.

- You have already walked the red carpet in Venice twice. Now you could win an Oscar - why not? Americans already know you, a critic from The Hollywood Reporter once praised your performance in «Reflection». How do you feel about fame?

- I have no problem with people paying attention to my work and praising it.

Yes, I read about myself in The Hollywood Reporter and Variety - positive reviews inspire and motivate. And humility does not lead to anything good (smiles).

As for the Oscar - one should always hope, but simply being nominated is already a huge success.

Photographs from a private archive

20
хв

Roman Lutskyi: «A large war always provokes micro-wars - within family universes»

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