Support Sestry
Even a small contribution to real journalism helps strengthen democracy. Join us, and together we will tell the world the inspiring stories of people fighting for freedom!
Joanna Mosiej: You have said that your greatest dream is for the world to wake up and for us to have a future. Are we truly at the point of the Weimar Republic's decline? Is there no hope or way back for us? Must history repeat itself?
Agnieszka Holland: I fear it will be difficult to turn back from this path unless there is genuine will. Of course, hope dies last, but it must be a collective hope, not just that of individuals. At present, those who determine our fate lack both ideas and will. And they lack courage. At the moment, all right-liberal-centrist governments are decisively shifting towards reactivity in the face of what they perceive as an inevitable wave of brown populism. When nothing but even greater populism stands against this wave, the game of world destiny cannot be won. At least, not in the coming decade. At the same time, I do not see the diligence, determination or charisma that could persuade people that certain values are worth fighting for. This applies to all dimensions - in the way Ukrainians are fighting and in the way they forgo certain comforts for the sake of a better future and the expansion of rights for others.
At the same time, more and more people who were previously engaged are retreating into internal exile due to fatigue, disappointment and loss of hope.
Yes, they are withdrawing into a kind of oblivion and passivity, which is why the crisis of hope seems to me the deepest and most dangerous crisis. It manifests in many ways, such as the reluctance to have children in wealthier countries, which stems precisely from a lack of hope, from a lack of belief that the future has meaning. That it is good enough to project oneself into. And such immense disappointment, a sense of meaninglessness, and the desire to remove young or sensitive, idealistic people from politics - this is a phenomenon that is deadly dangerous to any attempt to preserve democracy.
We are also living in such a sombre time. In one way or another, what is happening in Poland is, to some extent, a reflection of what is happening in the world. What Donald Trump is doing, how quickly various authoritarian regimes are rising - it is all so bleak. One can react to this with fatalism, succumb to it and try to go with the flow, as most of the political class is doing.
This is an approach of peculiar, narcissistic selfishness that politicians like Donald Trump are very attuned to. They build upon it. They give hope to those who are so uncritical that they mistake any glitter for gold and are very easily tempted. They are not equipped with the tools of elementary criticism to resist modern means of communication.
In the era of the internet revolution, artificial intelligence, and social media with their algorithms, manipulating public opinion is trivially easy and hellishly effective
These monsters have absolutely incredible tools at their disposal. This is a great failing of the entire education system, as well as the media, which have succumbed so much to the pressure of clickability that they have essentially ceased to be an authority for anyone.

I have the impression that Ukraine's tragedy also lies in its attempt to join a world that no longer exists - the world of liberal democracy, human rights, and the rule of law. A world that is melting away like precious ore.
To some extent, that is exactly the case. Donald Trump's recent actions, particularly the freezing of USAID funds, directly harm their means of existence. They take away hope not only for a better future but even for the present. These funds financed the work of many NGOs and provided concrete humanitarian aid. Replacing these funds will be difficult. That is why we must rebuild independent NGOs and media on some other foundation. It will be a tremendous effort because the money is mostly on the side which all millionaires and great technologists belong to.
Trump and his surrogates, like some sort of sorcerer's apprentice, can be astonishingly effective precisely because they have no restraints. Until now, we were accustomed to the idea that there are certain rules and boundaries that must not be crossed.
We are undoubtedly on the defensive.
How will this end?
I think we more or less know. It will end in some kind of apocalyptic catastrophe, after which we will, hopefully, find our way home again
If we survive, we will return to some sense of meaning, but for now, things do not look very good.
How then can we provide hope?
I can only express my astonishment, because, to be honest, offering hope in a situation where I do not know where to find it would be highly irresponsible.
You are the conscience of Polish cinema, but whom would you consider a hero of our time - a kind of Citizen Jones?
Citizen Jones, the brave whistleblower, has always been my hero. Activists are also heroes - those who go against the tide, who are always guided by the most fundamental values. For me, they are the heroes of our time. It is difficult for them because they are a great minority. Just as there was a great minority of democratic opposition in communist countries, or as there was a great minority of early Christians. But I believe that this world is constantly being rebuilt, and that with each such upheaval, these liberties expand. Therefore, I hope that it will happen now as well.
In your film «Europa, Europa», there is a surreal scene in which Hitler dances in the arms of Stalin. I think today you could create a similar scene where Putin dances with…
Well, yes, I think you could form quite a large circle of dancing, deranged authoritarian narcissists who disregard any values other than their own immediate and grand victories.
«Europa, Europa», which was in a way a warning, becomes relevant again, as do all films or stories in moments like these, when it is about what happens to a person faced with the simplest choice - to save themselves.
And everything else ceases to matter.
We filmed it in 1989, and it appeared in cinemas at the turn of 1990-91. It was a time of great hopes, of great changes in our part of Europe. I was often asked why the double title. I replied that I was intrigued by Europe's duality, a kind of dichotomy reflected in the fate of the boy - the film's main character.
On one hand, Europe is the cradle of the greatest values - democracy, human rights, equality, fraternity, solidarity, and great culture. On the other hand, it is the cradle of the greatest crimes against humanity and the utmost cruelty
That is the duality. And now, once again, it is beginning to lean towards its dark side. We are entering darkness, and for now, there is no light at the end of the tunnel. But that does not mean we should not move towards that light.
We need to form a coalition against what is happening. We need to encourage those who resist. There are still many people of goodwill, and it is on their resistance that we must build the future.

At last, some hope.
And to my Ukrainian friends and acquaintances, I would like to say that light will appear. For now, we see darkness around us and feel as though there is no light at all. But that light exists. It is within us. We are the bearers of that light, and those fighting in Ukraine are, more than anyone, the bearers of that light. There are many forces around that wish to extinguish this light. We must protect them. All I can express is my admiration for their strength and solidarity.
Thank you very much. That was beautifully said. Lately, we have been telling ourselves that hope lies within us. Because when it seems there is nowhere else to find it, we must seek it within ourselves.
Exactly, you are right. That is precisely what I wanted to say - that the light, or hope, is within us.
Support Sestry
Even a small contribution to real journalism helps strengthen democracy. Join us, and together we will tell the world the inspiring stories of people fighting for freedom!