Iryna Matiash: «Our female diplomats are people with thirty hands and heads. They know and can do everything»

«Women's Territory» is a nationwide organisation that has united women worldwide. Over nearly 11 years of existence, they have implemented dozens of projects, including cultural ones. The head of the organisation, Liliia Shevchenko, believes that a person who knows their roots automatically understands who they are and what they must do to preserve their country. The full-scale war has altered the organisation's operations. They have already delivered over five hundred tonnes of humanitarian aid to military personnel and civilians. They support families of prisoners of war and help women who have experienced violence. Moreover, they are expanding their presence in Europe.

Nataliia Zhukovska: Ms Liliia, you are the head of the «Women's Territory» organisation. What is this territory like?

Liliia Shevchenko: Our nationwide public organisation «Women's Territory» was founded by ideologically driven women who live and breathe Ukraine. This is not an empty phrase but the pure truth. «Women's Territory» is neither defined nor limited by borders. It is not only the territory of those residing in Ukraine but also the territory of women worldwide, especially now, when millions of Ukrainian women, fleeing war, have found temporary refuge in many European countries. We want to help them systematically. So, we decided that «Women's Territory» would now operate under the umbrella of the host country and its laws. Currently, work on the documents for «Women's Territory» in Poland is nearing completion. We have held talks with representatives from the Polish Ministry of Social Policy and with relocated Ukrainian businesses and Polish businesses. How will they help Ukrainian women in Poland? Primarily by organising Sunday schools. This is important so that children while learning about the culture of their host country, do not forget their Ukrainian heritage. Given that Ukraine is in a full-scale war and most funds from businesses and ministries are allocated to military needs, there is insufficient funding from the Ministry of Education for books and educational materials for children abroad. One of the tasks of «Women's Territory» is not only to establish Sunday schools but also to print books. We have already held talks with the «Gutenberg» publishing house. We will distribute books for free, starting with our Sunday schools.

We already have a developed base, so organising work in Poland will not be difficult. One of our members opened the first art school in Warsaw at the end of 2022 and has already received small grants from the local Polish authorities. The school offers free art classes to both Ukrainian and Polish children.

One of the messages of «Women's Territory» is that we not only take from the countries that shelter us but also give to them

We have provided Europe with qualified specialists. Due to the war in Ukraine, many educators, medical professionals and managers moved to the EU. Many of them have already had their diplomas recognised. For instance, our member, who led «Women's Territory» in Dnipro, now lives in Gdansk, has confirmed her qualifications, and is a qualified lawyer. Her mother also verified her diploma and works as a dentist. So, we offer our knowledge and services to the Polish people as well. We want the Poles to understand that they do not only give but also receive. This will also be one of the tasks of «Women's Territory» in Poland.

We will also focus on women's leadership and gender issues. A woman must understand her status and significance in society.

How has the organisation's work changed since the start of the full-scale war?

«Women's Territory» shifted 90 per cent towards volunteer activities. In Poland, for example, we partnered with several Polish foundations that had a 400-square-metre volunteer warehouse in Warsaw. We are grateful to the Poles for covering its rental costs for an extended period. It was packed to the ceiling with humanitarian aid, ranging from clothing and food to expensive medical supplies, which we distributed to Ukrainian hospitals. For example, we had diffuser devices, each costing around 2500 euros, with over a thousand in stock. We equipped hospitals with beds, X-ray machines, and vitamins. Both Ukrainians and Poles worked at the warehouse. We dispatched trucks loaded with aid based on recipients' requests and provided support to relocated family-type children's homes and care facilities for the elderly. We received tourniquets and body armour and raised funds for drones. We did not merely adapt to new challenges - we also helped others adapt to them.

Who are the members of your organisation?

There are around two thousand of us. There are women, heads of departments, who have their own public organisations and foundations. For example, our member is Iryna Mikhniuk - a widow, the wife of a fallen Hero of Ukraine. Since 2014, she has headed the organisation «Wings of the Eighth Hundred» - it consists of widows, wives of the fallen, and children. In Ukraine, there are already 19 officially registered branches of ours. The team includes women from various professions and financial backgrounds, but with a shared ideological mindset and vision. There are also military personnel, such as Viktoria Khrystenko, who was the first adviser to the Admiral of the Ukrainian Navy.

In my team, there is a board member of «Women's Territory» from Donetsk, Alina Khaletska, who was forced to flee her native city. Her family had a unique background. Her husband worked for the Donetsk administration, and she herself is a lecturer, professor and academician. They left everything behind when they fled. Upon arriving in Irpin, they worked hard to save money and eventually started purchasing a flat. Sadly, during the full-scale war, it was destroyed by an enemy shell. They endured the occupation in Irpin. In other words, they have lived through occupation twice in their lifetime. This woman was offered work abroad. Where do you think she is? In Irpin. She does not wish to leave Ukraine.

What problems do women approach you with?

Many women joined us when we became part of the coalition «Women, Peace, Security». These are activists fighting for women's leadership and supporting victims of violence. In Ukraine, this remains a major issue, especially in places like Bucha and Irpin. You are likely familiar with some of these stories. There is much I know but cannot share publicly. Our agreement is to not speak of experiences unless we were participants. I am a witness. These are stories lived by women, girls, or children. They share their stories themselves if they wish to. All stories are heavy. How do we support them? I always advocate for mutual assistance and supporting one another. It is crucial to speak with them very carefully, as every word can be traumatising.

We help them regain their footing, providing a sense of sisterhood and the reassurance that they are not alone - that we stand together

We stress that anyone could find themselves in a similar situation. Our message is one of solidarity. Sometimes, we involve these women in processes by seeking their help to show them they are needed. Engagement, even minimal, can serve as a distraction and relief. We have no formal programme for this, our approach has been refined over many years.

Additionally, through a memorandum of cooperation with municipal employment centres, we assist women in retraining and finding jobs. We collaborate closely with the Ministry of Veterans. Many of the women in «Women's Territory» are defenders who were once civilians. We were the first to help sew military uniforms and undergarments for women. We also sourced anatomical body armour specifically designed for them.

What has the organisation accomplished during its existence?

Our lives are now divided into «before» and «after» the full-scale war. Prior to it, we had a powerful project that united Ukrainian children living abroad. We also established the International Festival of Cultural and Creative Industries, known as «Women's Territory», which we later renamed «Masters' Territory». If not for the full-scale war, this festival would have received funding from the Ministry of Culture and Information Policy. It was a platform that elevated Ukrainian crafts, demonstrating that Ukrainian products are not merely sold at fairs and markets, but even in five-star hotels. For now, this project has been put on hold. Today, we focus on uniting Ukrainian women abroad.

We strive to ensure that Ukraine is not forgotten. Our initial focus is on registering «Women's Territory» in Poland and France. Next, we plan for Belgium, Switzerland, Germany and Spain

We have provided female defenders with over 1200 boxes containing first-aid kits, vitamins, special olive-based creams to prevent skin cracking and even perfumes.

Every woman should feel like a woman, no matter where she is. We even provided hair dye tailored to their colour types. Once, I asked the women to take photos for a media campaign to raise funds for these boxes. They sent back pictures - clean, with hairstyles and manicures. It turned out they had travelled to a district centre and, using their own money, found skilled manicure artists and hairdressers. They told me, «Lilia, when we opened these boxes, we felt like we were at home». You see, they received a psychological breath of happiness.

Your organisation has helped women with children evacuate from dangerous areas to avoid occupation. How did this happen, and how many people have you assisted?

We do not have exact numbers on how many people we have helped. We evacuated people from Melitopol, Berdyansk, Kherson, Donetsk region, and the left, already occupied, bank of the Zaporizhzhia region. Of course, we were assisted by the military. I am unsure if I am allowed to disclose the details of every rescue story. I will share one - the story of a mother with two children who were leaving Melitopol. At that time, her daughter was 15, and her son was three years old. Their father was in the Armed Forces of Ukraine. If the Russians had found this out, they would have been executed. She instructed her children to remain silent and, if necessary, to respond only in Russian. On their way, Russian soldiers armed with weapons boarded the bus to conduct checks. Approaching them, the muzzle of a rifle hanging on one soldier's shoulder accidentally pressed against the child's head. The boy was so terrified that he wets himself to this day. They were interrogated, their phone SIM cards were examined, and the family endured multiple rounds of hell. It later turned out they were fortunate that the child was not undressed. Only later did the mother notice a hidden sheet of A4 paper on her son's chest. On it was a drawing of his father in military uniform, with a flag and the words «Glory to Ukraine!». The boy had placed that drawing there himself. To him, it represented Ukraine, his life. If the Russians had seen that drawing, they would have been executed. We have many such stories.

Do you keep in touch with the families you have assisted?

Someday, I will revisit those lists. But for now, our priority is to officially establish «Women's Territory» in Europe and America. We are resilient, genuine, and active. We are women accustomed to giving, not taking. Perhaps in time, I will become more interested in the fates of those we have helped. However, I often question whether reaching out would be beneficial or if it might unintentionally bring harm.

You travel abroad frequently. What do you talk about there, how do foreigners react, and what interests them most?

I talk about the solidarity and resilience of the Ukrainian people. I share the harsh realities of war we face, the immense challenges, and our efforts to overcome them. My message is always framed to emphasise the need for support in these efforts. I say, «We are taking action, not standing by. Help us in this war in any way you can - through expertise, humanitarian aid, or military support». We consistently highlight the need to support the Ukrainian army, and I know our message is being heard.

«Women's Territory» supports prisoners of war and continuously participates in various campaigns. Do you believe these efforts contribute to exchanges?

Absolutely. We have been supporting the families of prisoners of war since the start of the war in 2014. We organise events with the mothers, wives, and children of captured marines. Do you remember those taken prisoner in Crimea at the beginning of the war? We brought the mother and daughter of one of the marines to the UN so that their speech could raise awareness and tell the truth about the war in Ukraine. Any information campaign must be planned and ongoing. Such initiatives not only ensure that the world does not forget those in captivity but also help the relatives of prisoners of war feel they are not alone, preventing them from being lost in their grief. Tragedy unites. We have many poignant stories related to the return of prisoners of war. Recently, there was a soldier on the list who had been eagerly awaited by everyone. They thought he had come back. However, it turned out it was not him. The surname was the same, but the first name was different.

You also conduct training sessions for government institutions on communication with veterans and their families. What are the key principles you focus on?

I will illustrate with the example of the Kyiv City Employment Centre. Engaging with a military veteran, a defender or a servicewoman, requires a particular approach. For instance, we - as empaths - often feel the urge to approach a soldier on the street and say, «Thank you for your service. Glory to Ukraine». We might want to hug them and say, «You are a hero!». Yet, almost none of this should be said or done. These are triggers. If you call them heroes, they often do not perceive themselves that way. This is why we educate not only employees of state institutions but also the civilian population. The most important thing is teaching how to understand and engage with these individuals. For example, when they come to the Kyiv City Employment Centre, the manager who interacts with them must be highly qualified and aware that every soldier might experience flashbacks. We train them to pay attention to facial expressions, eyes, and behaviour. Employees of such institutions must be prepared for any possible scenario because almost all soldiers have experienced concussions. Furthermore, there must be barrier-free access and inclusivity.

Veterans must be actively involved in rebuilding Ukraine after the war, not left idle at home

Sociologists warn of a crisis facing the country after the war, particularly a demographic one. Do you think Ukrainian women will return from Europe after the victory? What steps are needed to ensure this?

I am unsure if I can speak openly about this, but yes, we are facing a demographic crisis. A baby boom will not be enough to solve this. We are exploring solutions because it concerns our future. Will women return from abroad? The longer the full-scale war continues, the less likely it becomes. Many divorces are happening now. Numerous women have adapted to their children's needs, and most of these children are assimilating into the societies where they now live. We have already encountered such cases among my members. They lived abroad. The daughter wanted to return, but the son did not. He had adapted, made friends, and was better accepted in his class than he had been at home. He likes the new country.

We must understand that parents' decisions will be influenced by their children. Therefore, we need to prioritise working with children abroad

Moreover, many women abroad have managed to realise themselves better or earn more than they did at home. For example, she was a nurse in a hospital in western Ukraine, and now she works as a nurse in Wroclaw. In Poland, she earns significantly more. Our officials must listen to society and start developing a programme to bring Ukrainian women home today. «Women's Territory» will undoubtedly contribute to this effort, primarily with its experience and resources. After all, we live in this country - to defend, revive, and provide it with a future. Fortunately, the majority of «Women's Territory» members abroad understand this.

Traumatised by uncertainty

Olga Pakosh: How traumatised is contemporary Ukrainian society? How would you characterise it?

Michał Bilewicz: We cannot say that the entire society suffers from PTSD. If that were the case, people would likely struggle to function normally. Let me remind you that PTSD symptoms include persistent flashbacks, intrusive thoughts about war and the inability to concentrate on anything else. Meanwhile, we see that the Ukrainian state is functioning - the economy is operating, and daily life goes on.

Ukraine increasingly resembles Israel - a society living under constant threat.

Israeli psychologist Daniel Bar-Tal described this phenomenon as an «intractable conflict», where society adapts to continuous conflict, accepting it as a natural state of affairs. He also wrote about the «ethos of conflict», referring to how societies grow accustomed to living in a state of war.

What does this look like in Israel? When I visited, I was always struck by the fact that every flat has a safe room that doubles as a bomb shelter. Residents go to this room whenever an alarm sounds. After all, the advanced Iron Dome missile defence system is not entirely foolproof - missiles occasionally hit homes.

It seems that Israeli society has adapted to living with war. On the one hand, it functions normally, but on the other, conflict is a constant presence. We are not only talking about the war in Gaza but about a phenomenon that, with some interruptions, has persisted throughout modern Israeli history. As Bar-Tal points out, this situation erodes social trust and influences attitudes towards international politics - people are reluctant to seek alliances and agreements with other nations, feeling that the world is hostile and untrustworthy.

For Ukraine, the key objective is to join European structures - the European Union and NATO - as quickly as possible. This could ensure Ukraine’s future security and stable economic functioning. However, for this to work, it is essential to avoid slipping into the mentality typical of societies accustomed to war.

Since 2014, Ukraine has been in a constant state of war, with varying levels of intensity, and this is extremely dangerous. Therefore, I would describe Ukrainian society as one that is, to some extent, adapting to life in wartime conditions.

- The war in Ukraine has opened up vast areas for research in social and clinical psychology. No doubt you have been following these studies. Have you encountered anything surprising? Have you conducted joint studies with Ukrainian institutions?

- We have conducted two studies. Together with Anna Hromova, a PhD candidate from the Institute of Social and Political Psychology at the National Academy of Pedagogical Sciences of Ukraine, we examined almost five thousand Ukrainian refugees living in Poland to study the prevalence of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and the degree of trauma. We also looked into how living conditions in Poland affect the development of PTSD symptoms and reflected on whether post-migration experiences might intensify trauma, and if so, in what ways.

As you may recall from the book, I was surprised by the findings of previous research, which showed that PTSD rates in Poland ranged from 20 to 30 per cent. For example, in studies conducted in Silesia after the floods, 30 per cent of the population exhibited PTSD symptoms. Even among students who visited the Auschwitz museum, 15 per cent were diagnosed with PTSD. These numbers have always been exceptionally high.

In our study of Ukrainian refugee women in Poland, we found a PTSD rate of 47 per cent. I must say, I have never seen such a result in my life. This is indeed a very high level of trauma

It is a consequence not only of the traumatic wartime experiences but also of the conditions in which the refugees find themselves after migrating.

- Could you explain why the level of trauma is so high?

- Typically, PTSD studies are conducted after a conflict ends, when peace returns. In our study, we dealt with an ongoing war, where the women surveyed continue to live in a state of uncertainty. Their husbands are often on the front lines or at risk of being called up, which adds to the stress.

The vast majority of these women face acculturation challenges (the process of mutual cultural influence, where one culture adopts aspects of another - Edit.) in the new society. Acculturation-related stress, including experiences or fears of discrimination in Poland, leads to more intense PTSD symptoms. It is harder for people to move past war trauma when they encounter discrimination in the country they have moved to. Therefore, it is crucial that Poland creates the most supportive environment possible for Ukrainian refugees, as this directly impacts their mental health and their ability to function well in Poland.

Of course, the intensity of PTSD symptoms also depends on individual characteristics. We noticed that people who struggle with uncertainty managed the worst. We remember how things were in the spring of 2022 - full of uncertainty and chaos. People with low tolerance for uncertainty were more prone to PTSD, whereas those who coped better with such situations were less likely to experience symptoms.

«During war trust in the government is essential»

- You mentioned two studies. What was the focus of the second one?

- The second study, which we conducted in collaboration with Ukrainians, was focused on Ukraine itself and examined how complex PTSD experiences influence various forms of distrust and conspiracy theories. I have been interested for some time in how these traumas can shape such attitudes. I observe this phenomenon in Poland as well:

Historical traumas cause people, even generations later, to continue viewing their surroundings as unreliable and to seek out conspiracy theories

It seems that something similar is happening in Ukraine. When I speak with Ukrainians, I often hear conspiracy theories about President Zelensky - for instance, that there are Russian agents among his close associates. This reflects a certain level of fundamental distrust towards politicians, which, in wartime, is very dangerous. The greater the social cohesion and trust in the authorities, the better it is for the country. Even if the authorities do not always act perfectly - and with issues like corruption in our part of Europe, we know this is sometimes the case - in a war situation, trust in the government is essential.

A similar issue relates to trust in science. We studied this in Ukraine, focusing on how much people trust health and medical services, particularly regarding vaccination. We found that people with stronger PTSD symptoms tend to have less trust in science. We are not yet certain in which direction this correlation moves - this is preliminary research - but we are interested in whether war experiences and trauma impact overall distrust or if people simply lose trust in various areas of life. This is a quite dangerous phenomenon, and it often arises in wartime conditions.

- How can this trust be restored? What could help Ukrainians to endure and maintain mental stability until victory?

- Certainly, restoring a sense of agency in daily life - the awareness that what one does has meaning, that one can plan something and carry it out. 

The more people feel capable, the better they will function. This is why combating corruption is so essential, as it robs people of the feeling that they have any control over their lives. They know that everything is decided for them, and they have no influence. Effective anti-corruption measures can significantly improve the mental health of society.

- Unfortunately, war poses a massive threat to that sense of agency, doesn’t it?

- War complicates this greatly, which is why it is important for people to be able to say, «Even if war hinders certain plans, at least in other areas of life, nothing can stand in my way». It is crucial to help people regain this sense, as war fundamentally destroys it, stripping away their feeling of control. It is vital that people can maintain control and agency in their daily lives.

«Poland has no right to write Ukraine’s history»

- How do you think Poles' attitudes towards Ukrainians have changed since the start of the war? How do Poles perceive Ukrainians now?

- In my book, I try to counter a fatalistic outlook, as Poles tend to complain about themselves. I think Ukrainians do the same. We do not criticise ourselves when speaking with Germans or French people, but among ourselves, we often criticise one another.

Poles tend to think of themselves as biased, inhospitable, full of stereotypes. However, what we saw in the spring of 2022 was entirely different - a huge societal mobilisation to help Ukraine. People were sending money to buy weapons, purchasing food, and bringing people from the border. One in every twenty Poles welcomed Ukrainians into their homes. These were unprecedented actions.

I do not know of any other European society that has carried out such a large-scale relief effort, organised not by the government but by ordinary citizens

Of course, this was also supported by the strong networks among Ukrainians already living in Poland. It is important to remember that there were already a million Ukrainians residing in Poland at the time, who supported their relatives and friends. This was one of the key elements that made this large-scale aid possible.

At the same time, our research indicated not only significant sympathy but also strong support for aiding Ukraine, particularly in the acceptance of refugees. This was interesting, as Poles are generally not particularly supportive of refugees. Ukrainian citizens benefitted from the fact that Poles already had experience interacting with them. When we ask Poles whether they personally know any Arabs, 80 to 90 per cent respond that they have never encountered any in their lives. A similar situation applies to Romani people, with around 80 per cent of Poles reporting they have never had contact with them. When asked about Jews, 90 per cent of Poles claim they do not personally know any. However, the responses to questions about Ukrainians yield different results: even before the war, around half of Poles personally knew some Ukrainians.

A large number of Ukrainians, particularly from Western Ukraine, have been coming to Poland for years to work. Following 2014, Ukrainians from eastern regions, including Russian-speaking individuals, also began arriving in Poland. Poles became acquainted with them and observed that they were very similar to themselves. These relationships were not superficial - they were not just with Ukrainian workers in shops, but also with colleagues, and with parents of children attending the same schools as Polish children. This prepared Poles for 2022, as these refugees were no longer strangers - they were people whom Poles knew and had relationships with.

I believe that if the situation were reversed, and war broke out in Poland, Ukrainians would similarly take in Poles. Polish-Ukrainian relations are strong and mutually supportive.

It should also be noted that, before the war, there was considerable hatred directed at Ukrainians on the internet, particularly concerning the Volyn tragedy and war crimes. However, following 2022, this topic has almost vanished. Unfortunately, it is now gradually resurfacing, although these past two years have allowed us to step back from this issue.

In terms of Poles’ attitudes towards Ukrainians, enthusiasm for assistance has somewhat declined, yet the majority of Poles still believe that Ukrainian refugees should be supported and that Poland must continue backing Ukraine in the ongoing conflict. Well over half of Poles hold this view, so it cannot be said that Polish society has turned away from Ukraine and its people. We are still a long way from that.

- This is good news. However, the subject of Volyn has resurfaced, this time through the voice of the Prime Minister. Donald Tusk stated that until all details surrounding the Volyn tragedy are clarified and exhumations conducted, Poland will not support Ukraine’s path to the European Union...

- I believe this was a reaction to certain events. After Dmytro Kuleba ceased to be minister, the issue somewhat subsided. It was indeed an unfortunate comment. On one hand, I believe that Minister Kuleba spoke the truth, but as a diplomat, he ought not to have said it at that moment and in response to such a question. However, the time will come when Poles will need to raise the issue of Operation «Vistula» and earnestly confront it.

Of course, it can be argued that the actions were those of the communists, not the Polish people, that it was the communist government of a state that no longer exists. However, it is essential to remember the complex interwar politics of Poland, which discriminated against Ukrainians. I know this well, as I myself come from Ukraine. My grandmother was from Kolomyia, and my grandfather from Ivano-Frankivsk, so I am aware of what happened there before the war and of Poland’s discriminatory policies towards Ukrainians.

- How can the issue of the Volyn tragedy be resolved on both historical and political levels so that it is no longer a burden on Polish-Ukrainian relations? You summarised it well in your book: «to talk about history, but not live in it».

- Vadym Vasyutynsky of the Institute of Social and Political Psychology at the National Academy of Pedagogical Sciences of Ukraine conducted an interesting study, which he began before the full-scale war and continued afterwards. As far as I recall, he asked Ukrainians, in a large sample, whether Ukrainians caused more harm or good to Poles throughout their shared history.

After 2022, the number of people acknowledging that there were also negative events, including crimes, in these relations increased. This indicates that Ukrainians are becoming more open to discussing challenging moments in their shared history with Poles.

I pondered over why this might be. Perhaps, after 2022, Ukrainians realised just how important good relations with Poland and the West are? Politically, we see that, for example, former President Viktor Yushchenko referred to the traditions of the UPA, even highlighting some of the more controversial aspects of history, including the forces that collaborated with the Germans during the war. In contrast, Volodymyr Zelensky tends to avoid this. It seems to me that there has been a noticeable shift from Yushchenko to Zelensky in terms of which aspects of history are suitable and necessary to highlight, such as the Carpathian Sich…

- Am I correct in understanding that you suggest celebrating other stages of Ukrainian history, rather than those that may be painful for Poland?

- Exactly. When considering our history, one can always choose different elements to promote and to build one’s identity upon. Some elements damage our relations - both Polish and Ukrainian ones. If Poles were to build their identity on the history of Jeremi Wiśniowiecki, who killed Cossacks, it would not be beneficial for relations with Ukraine, would it?

I believe there are excellent periods in our history worth highlighting. For instance, Ivan Franko, or figures like Petliura, who, despite mixed views among Ukrainians, is well-regarded by Poles.

Of course, Poland does not have the right to write Ukraine’s history. Please do not ask me about this, as it is a question for Ukrainians. Likewise, Ukrainians do not have the right to write Poland’s history.

However, I can express my dissatisfaction when Poles avoid taking a clear stance on Operation «Vistula» and fail to say: «Yes, a terrible wrong was committed, with masses of people forcibly relocated, deprived of land on which they had lived for generations.» It was wrong, just like the pacification of Ukrainian villages before the war, the destruction of the «Maslosoyuz» cooperative and Ukrainian cooperatives, and the imprisonment and torture of Ukrainian politicians by the authorities of the Second Polish Republic. Poland needs to acknowledge this, to learn to speak about it, and to engage in dialogue with Ukrainians.

As for Ukraine, this is a matter for Ukrainian historians - how they propose to present their history. My ideal scenario would be what Poland eventually achieved with Germany after many years: the creation of a joint commission to prepare textbooks.

Historians and educators, both Polish and Ukrainian, could collaborate on a joint textbook to teach Polish-Ukrainian history. This would be incredibly valuable, even if the textbook did not become the primary one used in all schools

It is essential to create spaces where we can collectively discuss how to present this history. It is not about idealising everything but rather about speaking openly, even about the difficult moments. However, it is also important to remember that the situation was asymmetrical: Poland was a coloniser, while Ukraine was a colonised country. This is not a matter of equal responsibility on both sides.

Understanding this context allows for a deeper comprehension of how the events in Volyn occurred. It is also necessary to conduct exhumations and to openly acknowledge that what happened was horrific and should never have taken place.

- It appears there is much work ahead to achieve understanding between Poles and Ukrainians, but with Russians… Is there even a possibility of ever reaching an understanding with them? How do you view this from the perspective of social psychology? Will we ever be able to forgive?

- When we attempt to reconcile nations that have experienced brutal wars, we typically start with moral exemplars. We try to show that even in dark times, people can act morally. For instance, we tell the story of a Russian schoolgirl who had the courage to protest against the war. We are not speaking about an adult, but a young person who not only faces persecution herself but whose entire family suffers as a result of her protest. Such individual acts of defiance demonstrate that even within Russia, one can find people with moral convictions.

This is reminiscent of the situation with Germany after the Second World War. Reconciliation with Germany was made possible because we recognised that, despite much of society supporting Hitler, there were Germans who were persecuted and imprisoned in concentration camps, such as Buchenwald. These were Germans who wished to appeal to a different history. I believe similar individuals can be found in Russia. However, the problem is that, at present, Russia is a country where, on the one hand, the war enjoys substantial support, and on the other, no opinion polls or surveys can be trusted, as people are intimidated.

It resembles living in a state run by a gang

- How much time will need to pass before this topic can be approached?

- Let’s discuss this once the war is over. I think, at this moment, no one in Ukraine wants to hear about it or hear the Russian language - this is entirely understandable, and Ukrainians have an absolute right to feel this way. It depends on the situation and on what Russia looks like post-war. The key will be whether Russians can rebuild their state on a different foundation and set of principles.