Mariia Gorska

Mariia Gorska: On July 1st Ukraine began the negotiations on joining the EU. It is a unique case - a country resisting an aggressor is simultaneously going into the EU. As an expert on the European Commission in the 2000s and an employee of the Polish Committee for European Integration in the 1990s, how do you see this moment in Ukraine and Poland’s history?

Małgorzata Bonikowska: This is certainly a precedent. The EU has never faced such a situation before. None of the candidate countries have been in a state of open war. The Republic of Cyprus was the only country that joined while having problems at the borders.

But it was the war that led the EU, as a union of twenty-seven, to make decisions important to its history. Not only did it unequivocally condemn Russia and support the country that suffered from the attack and brutal invasion, but it also adopted more than a dozen packages of sanctions against Russia and introduced joint mechanisms of financial and military assistance to Ukraine.

This is also a precedent in the European Union - joint arms purchases from a common budget, the so-called «European Peace Facility». The EU has never engaged in this before.

This war has put the structures of the European Union into a state of shock. In response, certain measures have been taken that resulted in an expansion and a quick start of the negotiations with Ukraine and Moldova

Processes that could not be moved for years, if not decades, are now happening.

What are the main tasks for Ukraine during the negotiations?

While the war in Ukraine is an absolutely extraordinary situation, the process of negotiations about joining the EU is a standard procedure.

Poland, like other countries that joined the EU, went through this process. It involves a country that wants to join the European Union negotiating to adopt the entire legislative base and the main principles of the EU's functioning. Therefore, these are negotiations in which the position of the negotiating country is weak because, as a rule, this country still has to accept everything in the end.

The only question is how quickly and to what extent. The negotiations are based on clearly defined principles. There are 35 negotiation chapters concerning specific areas of state functioning, such as agriculture, environmental protection, education, the economy and healthcare. The negotiations concern how quickly and to what extent the country wishing to join the EU will adapt to the EU legislation and internal rules.

Transition periods are possible, meaning a slower adaptation. In exceptional cases, exemptions, known as derogations from EU rules, are possible. For example, Malta has additional guarantees against the purchase of property by citizens of other countries.

Where do the biggest problems lie in Ukraine’s case?

First and foremost, it is corruption - a massive problem. It concerns the whole functioning of the state in habits formed back in the Soviet time.

The organisation of the state largely relies on agreements and oligarchy, and society has become accustomed to this. Corruption, of course, exists everywhere to some small extent, including in the EU, but such cases are stigmatised. There is an apparatus to hold people accountable in such situations.

However, these are absolute exceptions and are unequivocally condemned. Upon joining the EU, Ukraine will need to adjust the functioning of its state, relying on strong institutions and transparent procedures.

How long can Ukraine's integration take, and is it realistic to implement changes during the war while simultaneously defending the country?

The EU understands that the war is an additional challenge that places a tremendous burden on the Ukrainian state.

At the same time, Ukraine receives significant military and financial assistance. Therefore, it is important that there is no doubt about where this aid is going and that it is not subject to corruption mechanisms. When we talk about the plan for Ukraine's reconstruction after the war, we think not only about where to get the funds, in what scale, and how to modernise the country, but also how to ensure these funds do not leak «to the side» into private hands.

This is important, and I believe that one of the methods is close cooperation with foreign advisors from EU countries, including Poland.

Before the start of negotiations, the President of Ukraine approved a delegation to take part in negotiating the joining with the EU that was comprised of government officials, diplomats and experts. How important is the composition of this group and what skills should these people have?

Negotiation group is a formal structure, created by the government of the country joining the EU.

Each negotiation area is headed by a deputy minister who coordinates the work of an entire team. This team comprises individuals with substantial knowledge of the areas of discussion. Usually, these are people appointed by the relevant ministries - ministry employees or external experts. Exactly these individuals, using their professional knowledge, must assess the implications of implementing EU norms in Ukraine and their impact on specific sectors. Their role is to analyze whether there is a need for delays or even deviations from EU rules, and if so, to what extent, as well as how to prepare the legal framework in your country for making the necessary changes.

Ukraine is subject to a screening process which involves analysing the entire legal situation for discrepancies, gaps in legislation, lack of regulations and the need for new ones. The negotiating team will provide recommendations on creating regulatory documents that will need to be submitted to the Ukrainian parliament. As a result of the negotiations, Ukraine's legal situation should closely align with the EU's legal framework, so that there are no discrepancies at the time of accession.

This concerns the «Acquis communautaire» legislation, meaning all the legal norms, directives and standards that member states must adhere to. At the same time, however, each country has the right to negotiate a longer implementation period for these rules in particularly challenging areas. In Poland's case, for example, this was environmental legislation, as it set requirements too high for our country's development stage at that time. We joined the EU in 2004, and the transition period lasted until 2017 because we understood that we could not implement all EU standards in this area faster.

The Ukrainian side together with the EU needs to identify such issues that pose clear difficulties and agree on an extended period for implementing EU norms in these areas.

According to expert estimates, negotiations with the EU typically take an average of 5-7 years. However, the war in Ukraine is accelerating Ukraine's path to the West. How long can the negotiation and accession process take in our case?

War and accession are two different things. The war makes the negotiations difficult for Ukraine, though it will not accelerate them but rather slow them down

This is because the EU is already a quite complex organisation, comprising 27 countries with significant differences among them, as well as in their political systems. The accession of each new country poses additional challenges. Therefore, the EU tries to prepare both itself and the acceding country for this moment, minimising the differences. The greater the differences, the greater the internal problems for the EU as a whole.

We cannot allow a situation where enlargement undermines the entire structure from within.

There are many concerns on the EU’s side regarding the next enlargement. We do not want to weaken but only strengthen our community. That is why negotiations with Ukraine will be long and complex. In Poland's case, they lasted five years, and in Spain's case - nearly eight, while Greece had shorter negotiations (four years and five months, - Edit.).

Ukraine is a large and populous country. A large country means large problems. Look at the situation in agriculture and the conflict between Poland and Ukraine over grain. There will be more such situations in many other areas. Even without the war, there are many challenges between Ukraine and the EU, so negotiations will not be easy, and the moment of Ukraine's accession to the EU will be challenging for both sides.

What is the good news for Ukraine?

The good news is that there is a clear will to negotiate and that Ukraine is not only a candidate country but has already embarked on the path, with all twenty-seven EU member states convinced that Ukraine is a European country that must one day be a member of the European Union.

This is very good news for Ukraine. A few years ago, this prospect did not exist. Today, it is a reality materialising before our eyes.

What demands will Poland have in the negotiations with Ukraine? What will prevail - partnership or competition?

Ukraine is negotiating not with individual countries but with the European Commission.

The process is managed by the European Commission and the Directorate-General for Enlargement, which negotiates on behalf of all member states. The main idea is that the EU wants to expand and eventually accept Ukraine.

However, EU countries have different approaches to specific issues related to Ukraine's accession, depending on their own situations. There are countries where agriculture is a crucial aspect of the economy and is strong, such as Poland, France, and Italy, and there are those where agriculture is marginal, like Luxembourg.

Therefore, challenges like the ones posed by Ukrainian agriculture to the EU are crucial for some countries and less important for others. The same applies to other sectors.

Each member state analyses this through its own lens and provides the European Commission with specific comments and proposals regarding their preferences or concerns. It involves preserving the interests and positions of certain sectors and groups - entrepreneurs, farmers, the financial industry, the automotive industry - both in the EU and in Ukraine. Therefore, it is a process of reconciling very narrow details and specific technical issues.

In some respects, the negotiation process may seem like a step back for Ukraine. Due to the war, Ukraine suddenly became part of the European market at an accelerated pace, as the EU decided to help the Ukrainian economy by removing trade barriers. However, this was a temporary measure, driven by the Russian invasion and the desire to ensure Ukraine's survival.

Meanwhile, the war drags on, and we are facing a precedent where a country that is not in the EU has de-facto gained the same prerogatives that member-states have

This also applies to work permits and the free movement of people. During its negotiations with the EU, Poland particularly struggled with this issue, and we were unable to obtain the ability to freely operate in the European labour market from the first day of membership.

The only two countries that allowed us this opportunity at the time were the United Kingdom (which was then in the EU) and Ireland. All other EU countries imposed a seven-year transition period, meaning Poles could not work in EU countries without additional permits and procedures related to their employment.

Ukrainians, due to the war, have been granted the ability to move and work freely. In Poland, they receive a PESEL number, which means they can legally work, pay taxes, and, importantly, do not need to obtain any additional permits.

This would not have happened if it were not for the war.

How can Poland help Ukraine during the negotiations?

I believe Poland can do two things for Ukraine. First, we have gone through a similar process, so we have fresh practical experience to share. We negotiated our EU accession from 1998 to 2003. The people involved in this process are still active today. They can be asked for consultations, for example, as advisors to the Ukrainian government, to make the process as professional and efficient as possible.

Second, Poland, clearly interested in Ukraine's EU membership, can act as a bridge for Ukraine. Not all EU countries have such a clear vision of the future EU with Ukraine inside. There is a will, but some countries have significant reservations about how Ukraine functions and what it truly offers.

For example, Germany has many doubts. So today, Poland can play the role of a bridge, also connecting the cultural and historical closeness of our peoples. We can fulfil a similar role to the one Germany played for Poland in the late 1990s.

They wanted expansion and helped Western Europe not only recognise its inevitability but also see the benefits. Today, Poland can do the same for Ukraine.

What are the main lessons or advice you would give to Ukraine based on the Polish experience?

First and foremost, Ukraine needs to understand that everyone sympathises with it regarding the war. War is a terrible thing. But negotiations are different. Despite Ukraine's resistance to Russia, it will not receive special preferential treatment in the negotiations. It must become an EU member and accept the rules of this organisation.

Ukrainians have become very demanding. They feel they deserve everything because they are at war. This mindset is highly undesirable in negotiations. Ukraine must understand that it is joining a pool of countries that have agreed on a certain way of functioning, and excessive pressure and a lack of compromise will only lead to one thing - prolonging the negotiations.

The quick path to Ukraine's victory is joining NATO. However, the latest summit showed that NATO countries are not ready to offer Ukraine membership now. What should our actions be, and what are the prospects?

Firstly, continue fighting. Ukraine must withstand. No one knows how long - one year, two years - how long it will take. As long as the war in Ukraine continues, NATO will not accept Ukraine because the Alliance itself would be in a state of war.

After the end of the war, Ukraine’s situation will change - the Ukrainian army will be very experienced in combat and will be able to train the armies of the member-states itself. Accession to NATO will definitely be a step that will strengthen the Alliance.

We do not know how events will unfold in the United States and who will win the elections. However, an important part of thinking about Ukraine's future will be considerations about ending the war.

While Ukraine fights, Europe must remilitarise at an accelerated pace to provide Ukraine with enhanced assistance. Everyone here is racing against time, but not only us - Russia too. Look at the impact of sanctions - they have already led to Gazprom having negative financial results, meaning Russia's monetary resources for waging war are slowly running out. The faster their economy declines, the fewer funds Putin will have to finance the war, and the sooner it will end.

At some point, Russia will realise that it is not going to win this war and will come to the negotiating table. Otherwise, the negotiations will boil down to demands for Russia to retain the occupied territories and for Ukraine to be recognised as a buffer zone between Russia and NATO.

This situation is unacceptable for Ukraine and for the West.

Countries from the so-called axis of evil, along with some countries from the Global South, are helping Russia survive despite sanctions. How do we deal with this?

This is a matter of Western diplomacy, but the news is not so bad here. Look, in our camp, we have Australia, Japan, New Zealand, and South Korea.

Regarding other countries, we must negotiate and cooperate. Indeed, Russia is not alone and has its friends, allies, and countries it communicates with. But these are not always countries hostile to the West. These are often neutral countries or even partners of the West, like, for example, India.

Recently, we saw photographs of Prime Minister Narendra Modi visiting Putin. From India's perspective, this meeting was desirable, but the West perceived it negatively. Europe and the USA must be very active in the countries of the Global South. Not only transmitting our narrative and our vision of the war but also putting concrete proposals on the table that are more attractive to these countries than what comes from Russia.

Russia does not have much to offer, only cheap energy resources and weapons. We can provide a better offer.

In 5-10 years, what Europe will we live in?

It depends on us and our decisions, as well as whether we will yield to the pressure we are put under. Europeans are not used to living under constant threat.

After World War II, Europe, not having war on its territory, became accustomed to the idea that economic issues are the most important and that there are no other threats.

Now, Europeans live in constant stress - economic inequality disappoints people, and the international situation causes fear. Suddenly, it turned out that Russia, which seemed like a normal country, is not. All this is a kind of foundation for anxiety, disappointment, protests, and anarchic behaviour, and all this means that we can be internally destabilised.

Europe has found itself in between two polarities. One - is inner anxiety and disappointment because of the inner and outer instability. Second - the desire to assemble and work together

Which path will prevail and what does it depend on, while Europe is still at a crossroads?

I think people will not want to go back to the past and live worse. Our world is shaped by values, but also by the way of life and certain habits we have - for example, moving freely, living a safe, prosperous life, being together and cooperating in situations of increased threat.

We are going through tough times, and they require the implementation of cooperation mechanisms within the EU and across the entire European continent.

A lot depends on the leaders here. I see hope in the fact that in democracies, there are not just one, three, or five heads, but many, many people who have good ideas. This is much more powerful than the principle of action in authoritarian systems, where everything is decided by the leader and his will.

We can count on many wise heads and many wise concepts. We are already doing this, all because the war in Ukraine has accelerated certain processes. We see significant internal changes in the European Union. NATO expansion is ongoing, the EU enlargement process has begun, the coordination of the EU's military industry has been strengthened, and a Commissioner for Defense has been appointed.

Ukraine is our catalyst for positive change. Europeans have always emerged from crises stronger.

The «Green Border» by Polish director Agnieszka Holland was released in Ukrainian cinemas. It premiered last year at the 80th Venice International Film Festival. The «Green Border» film received a special award from the jury. It was also given the title of the best Polish movie of the year. Mariia Gorska, the chief editor of the Sestry.eu portal, met with Agnieszka Holland on the eve of the movie’s premiere at the Venice festival. To your attention - an interview with the outstanding Polish film director, that was first published on the portal on September 22 2023.

We’re meeting in Lady Agnieska’s old apartment in Warsaw. A live legend opens the doors for me. I brought white lilies to thank her for the movie about Holodomor [«The Price of Truth» premiered in February 2019 at the Berlin International Film Festival. - Edit]. We sat at a table underneath the painting «Saturn Devouring His Son» by Francisco Goya. I show Lady Holland the movie trailer that I brought on a flash drive from Ukraine. This is a part of the working material for the film saga about the writer Stanisław Vincenz - Homer of the Hutsuls. We were filming this movie in the Carpathians with a Polish-Ukrainian team before the war. 

From the Polish side, Lady Holland’s friends were working on the movie about the author of the Hutsul epic «On the High Uplands» - among them were film director Jan Kidawa-Błoński, camera operator Łukasz Hutt and other artists. I often see their group photos from protests for democracy in Warsaw on Facebook. Oleg Drach was supposed to play Vincenz in our movie. He also appears in Holland’s latest movie «Green Border». We watch the trailer for the movie about Vincenz where I’m playing as his wife. In the finale, we are fleeing by foot through the snowy Carpathian mountains from the Soviet occupation with our children and a suitcase. I’m thinking about the plans impeded by the war and all the displaced people like me.

We’re drinking strong black coffee, eating chocolate and talking. About tyrants and the nature of evil, about Ukrainian cinematography and helping the people on the frontlines. And also about the movie by the prominent director, «Green Border» which tells the story of how Putin and Lukashenko used migrants as weapons.

Mariia Gorska: Your previous film - «The Price of Truth» - is about a journalist who wanted to tell the world the truth about Holodomor in Ukraine  more than anything. During the filming of «Green Border» you’ve worked as a journalist yourself. In preparation for the film, your team conducted hundreds of interviews with activists, border security, doctors, policemen and refugees. What’s it like to work on a problem that we’re still seeing on news reports on our TV screens?

‍Agnieszka Holland: From this point of view, this is a unique movie. Usually, artistic films tell stories about things that have already happened, that have been «frozen in amber», so to speak. Obviously, the situation is different in the case of the full-scale invasion - both today and back when the war started in Donbas after the annexation of Crimea. Ukrainian filmmakers were quick to react to that. I have had the impression that the world is standing on the edge of an abyss for a long time now. And if we don’t build a bridge over this void we will fall into it.

I’m just doing what I do best - movies that display danger, are shocking and impressive, movies that enable the viewer to understand and experience something on a deeper level

What issues, important for the viewer and for you as an artist, are raised in «Green Border»?

It is taboo to talk about what’s happening on the border between Poland and Belarus. Terrible things are happening there that cast Polish official services in a less than favorable light. We on the other hand talk about it aloud. It is about the fear of the «Other», who will suddenly come and disrupt our comfort zone. We fear such people, we fear the unfamiliar, we fear poverty, we fear otherness - different skin colour, different religion, different smells. We fear that they (refugees) will come and take away our comfort, our habits, our culture.

This fear is so potent that populist politicians, who are oftentimes autocratic and even totalitarian like Putin, exploit it.  He sensed that the European Union is wealthy, rich and somewhat lazy - and it's very easy to destabilise it with this refugee threat. Populist politicians say: «We will stop them! But others (the opposition) will let them in and then this horde will overwhelm you! And these are terrible people - they spread germs and parasites, they hate women, they rape, they are pedophiles, zoophiles, terrorists.»

These migrants are so dehumanised that they cease to be seen as human beings in the eyes of many nations. And in such a situation, anything can be done to them, isn’t that so? We have already gone through this in the past and the recent history. When someone is not seen as human to us, but just as a cockroach, it becomes no problem to destroy them. This is what I’m afraid of.

I'm afraid that if we don't stop now, we'll be moving towards acceptance of extinction. That's what my movie is about

This movie caused an outrage in Polish mass media…

During the time of PiS (Law and Justice) government, state media didn't like me. They said, "The script was written by Putin and directed by Lukashenko," suggesting that I serve Putin and Lukashenko. To some extent, it's true because the script for this story was indeed written by Putin and Lukashenko directed it. Representatives of the free world in the European Union, like us, are assigned certain roles – just like refugees. However, the question remains open: which roles will we choose and whom will we play in this terrible mystery?

150 million people are fleeing from war, climate change and starvation - they are knocking on Europe’s door. What could be done to resolve this situation?

There are two options: either we become mass murderers, start bombing the boats in the Mediterranean Sea, install machine guns at the Belarussian border and start shooting, or we come up with something that will enable us to coexist and help each other.

The Poles have opened their homes and their hearts to Ukrainians who were fleeing the Russian war. What is your view on this?

The Poles were profoundly emotional when the full-scale invasion began.

People weren’t helping just to post photos on Instagram; they genuinely invested their time and money and sometimes even took risks by travelling deep into Ukraine. Many of my friends went there

They transported refugees, body armor for soldiers, medicine and animals. This was sincere and profound assistance that remains an important memory.

And when some PiS politician comes later and says that Ukrainians are ungrateful, I want to slap him in the face. Helping someone and demanding gratitude is a complete lack of class.

Ukraine is grateful to you! I would also like to thank you, Lady Holland, and Poland for your support. Has there been any story that has touched you personally?

We became good friends with Sasha Kostina’s family, the producer of «Pamfir» [a 2022 Ukrainian movie about a man’s return to his home village where he is forced to encounter the smuggling business that he tried to escape from for many years once again. - Edit.]. They’ve lived at our home in Brittany for a couple of months. It was a difficult time; everyone was in shock and had psychological trauma. They adopted a tiny baby from a hospital for premature babies. We were all with that little girl and a very kind and good boy, Timur, who was also born prematurely. I saw their suffering.

I used to be an emigrant myself, in Paris, many years ago. During martial law, I was abroad and suddenly found myself cut off from my family, with nothing but a suitcase. Since I had given several interviews against the regime, I couldn't return. That first year was very difficult until I managed to bring my daughter home. Therefore, I fully understand what such people feel. Those who fled from the occupied territories and have nowhere to return to, and those from Kyiv, Kharkiv, or Odesa, who live in constant stress.

Have you seen «Pamfir»?

Yes, I have. I saw this motion picture in 2022 in Cannes. Very powerful. I have also watched some other very good new Ukrainian movies, such as «Klondike» and «Butterfly Vision».

As an expert at the Ukrainian State Film Agency, I read the script for «Butterfly Vision». Maksym Nakonechnyi is a very talented young director, and Iryna Tsilyk wrote a powerful script. By the way, she is one of the authors of our online magazine «Sisters».

Me and Iryna are good friends. In 2022, we were on the documentary film jury at Cannes.

She probably told you about life in wartime Kyiv, which somewhat resembles Warsaw during the Warsaw Uprising [Agnieszka Holland’s mother, journalist Irena Rybczyńska-Holland, participated in the Warsaw Uprising. - Edit.]. Why does history repeat itself?

It’s because we haven’t learned anything. When I was filming movies about World War II (three of which are about the Holocaust), people asked me: «Why are you making movies on this subject? It’s nothing but history». And I would reply that I make them because I have the impression that this is not just history, that this threat can awaken at any time, and that the Holocaust was a kind of a vaccine for Europe and the world, but this vaccine has stopped working. It has passed, and we as humanity are once again ready for any crimes, horrors and tortures of apocalyptic scale.

Massive casualties, weaponised sexual violence, tortures and murders of thousands of city and village residents - today we’re observing the same things once again: in Izium, Kharkiv, Kherson and towns on the outskirts of Kyiv. What is this phenomenon of Putin and modern Russia, in your opinion? How could such cruelty and savagery be explained in this day and age?

This can only be explained by the nature of evil.

Humanity is inclined toward the evil. Nothing can hold back the evil’s potential if the mechanism is set running even by a single human being

It seemed as though there would no longer be any wars like the First or Second World Wars after the invention of the atomic bomb and other methods of remote warfare. But what is happening in Ukraine right now, what this frontline looks like, reminds me of the First World War. They sit in trenches on one side, they sit in trenches on the other side, advance by a kilometre, mine the area. It feels as though it’s not happening right now, as if it’s not real and as if it’s some kind of a historical reconstruction. 

I have the same impression. The distance in time between today and World War II seems to have shortened with Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. I am currently reading Remarque. And when I scroll through my social media, seeing photos from the frontline, from the trenches, it feels as if the book is coming to life - pure horror.

And at the same time, life goes on as usual just 500km away. And after the initial strong emotions passed, no one even turns on the TV when the news about the war is on.

What are your thoughts on Putin? If you had to make a movie about him, what would be in it? What makes 120 million Russians obey him?

I think it is due to his confidence and voluntarism. Most of the 20th century’s tyrants weren’t great people. Hitler was a pathetic little manchild, Stalin was some kind of a tiny «beak-nosed» Georgian. I'm not just talking about physical traits, but also about the fact that they didn't have any unusual intellectual qualities. They all had some kind of psychopathy.

I believe Putin could also be labelled as a psychopath, a clinical narcissist. Such people become truly dangerous when they push the button that forces everyone to follow them. Just like the Pied Piper, right?

The Pied Piper plays the flute, and people, as if enchanted, follow him, believing that he will lead them to a place where they will be happy. In a sense, Putin is a copy of Stalin, but he is less interesting than the original. He is a disgusting person who does a lot of evil. The world would be a better place if he were to disappear from it.

There are still leaders in Europe who seek agreements with Russia. Pope Francis addresses Russian Catholic youth as the heirs of a great Russia, a country of outstanding culture and humanity. However, Russian culture is an imperial culture, and the history of this country is soaked in blood. Why are some Europeans still oblivious to this fact? And what will become of Russia in the future?

It’s common among world leaders to think that Russia is too big to leave behind. It’s not going anywhere so they believe they need to find ways to live with it and build relationships in such a manner that it becomes more beneficial for Russia to be peaceful. This was the plan, wasn’t it? Only later did it become clear that they were acting irrationally. All authoritarian regimes, especially those led by one person with a personality cult, do not act rationally. For them maintaining power is more important than the economic situation, the welfare, or the happiness of their citizens. These things are secondary. The citizens of an authoritarian country do not need wealth and happiness. They need to be forced into believing that only this particular leader, only this dictator, will save them and lead them to a better world.

Russia is a terrible country. And it is terribly unhappy. After all, the victims of all these Russian tyrants are the Russians themselves.

What else can we do to make Putin lose in Ukraine? Russia's mobilisation potential is enormous. They are prepared for a prolonged war and to inundate the entire world with the bodies of their soldiers.

A nuclear button can only be neutralised by another nuclear button. The crisis of Western democracy lies in the politicians’ lack of long-term perspective. Not so long ago, it was said that they act from election to election. Now, I believe, they’re just acting from poll to poll. And Putin is counting on this.

The danger is that this could stabilise and become trivialised as a conflict that simultaneously seems active and suppressed. This could drag on for years. But then the question arises: what country could endure this - and how would people withstand it?

This war must end! Not smolder - so that people don’t have to live as if they are on a volcano that’s about to explode

Ukraine needs larger amounts of money and high-end weaponry.  And Western politicians must close their eyes to the fact that these weapons will be used beyond Ukrainian territory.

We’ve received major military support thanks to our friends like the Poles.

It is a «win-win» situation that benefits all of us - both Ukrainians and Poles. And when two sovereign nations work together, building trust and cooperation, the whole humanity benefits from it. This is especially important in the case of Poland and Ukraine due to our geopolitical situation. We share a common enemy and a common threat - Russia. Even if Putin disappears tomorrow, there is no guarantee that another head of the hydra won't emerge, is there? And there are no guarantees that the Russian people will be able to organise themselves in a democratic, non-imperial way. Therefore, we are compelled to cooperate. For us Poles, Ukraine is a guardian of our independence. On the other hand, without Poland, Ukraine will not enter Europe. We are Ukraine’s neighbours and one of its closest allies.

Many Ukrainian women, scattered around the world because of the war, read our magazine. What do you think of these women? What would you like to tell them?

You, Ukrainian women, have every right to fight for your life, your dignity, your children and your future. Do not let yourselves be oppressed and don’t think that you are not entitled to anything. Your compatriots, on the other hand, should understand that in the countries where they find themselves, people live differently. Therefore, Ukrainian women should also open their hearts and be sensitive to the identity, needs and traditions of those welcoming them.

What would you say to the residents of countries accepting Ukrainian refugees?

I would say that you should just help the people in need coming your way.

This dimension of help - human, personal, the most intimate - is the most important, for it builds the strongest bonds

On its course into the EU, Ukraine is forced to develop democracy amidst war. Poland travelled this path a long time ago - «Solidarity’s» victory inspired people on the Maidan. But your democracy is also threatened. Together, what can we do to protect our values?

We should keep an eye the hands of the politicians. We cannot let ourselves be fooled by fairytales, both in Ukraine and Poland. It is difficult because it is much easier to lie, manipulate and spread propaganda.

Politicians are not ashamed to use new technologies and let the genie out of the bottle by doing so. Soon, an ordinary human will not be able to distinguish the truth from lies

Social, not political institutions for truth research that will equip people with tools to distinguish truth from fake news should be created. And people should start doing it while they are still in school.

This sounds like a task for people like Gareth Jones, but is there anyone like that in the modern world?

Of course.

What world are we going to live in after the war?

We are going to heal our wounds and rebuild ourselves. There will be positive reconstruction energy, though there will also be much trauma, suffering and mourning. Europe and Ukrainians in particular will need a lot of optimistic enthusiasm.

It is important that this does not turn into a sense of inevitability described by Timothy Snyder. After the Second World War, it seemed as though the greatest trials were already behind us, but it turned out that evil still lurks among us and tends to its wounds.

It’s true.

Snyder also wrote about twenty lessons from the 20th century on tyranny. Which lesson is the most important to you?

The fact that there is no vaccine for tyranny. The worst-case scenarios will inevitably reoccur.

But you are an optimist! During the last hundred years, humanity, civilisation and human rights have evolved tremendously!

Yes, human rights have expanded. Social groups deprived of all rights have gradually gained them, and now humanity has become more inclusive. It even includes the welfare and rights of animals and plants.

So then, perhaps, we do have the chance to build a safer world?

This is a utopia. We are moving forward in small steps, but it's not a steady march. It's paroxysms: two steps forward, three steps back. Along this path, terrible events take place, suffering, torture and crimes occur. And then we move a little further again. This is not an optimistic path to a bright future; it's suffering and a struggle for every bit of freedom.

All of your movies are about moving beyond boundaries. What boundaries would you never cross?

The boundaries of humanity. We must always see a neighbour in another person. Of course, there are wars, when, for example, there's a Russian in front of us, and a soldier must shoot. But in all other situations, we cannot allow other people to become objects of hatred.

Thank you for this interview and for supporting Ukraine!