Снайперка Анастасія Савка: «Я ховалась у норі, де розкладались трупи росіян»

«Women's Territory» is a nationwide organisation that has united women worldwide. Over nearly 11 years of existence, they have implemented dozens of projects, including cultural ones. The head of the organisation, Liliia Shevchenko, believes that a person who knows their roots automatically understands who they are and what they must do to preserve their country. The full-scale war has altered the organisation's operations. They have already delivered over five hundred tonnes of humanitarian aid to military personnel and civilians. They support families of prisoners of war and help women who have experienced violence. Moreover, they are expanding their presence in Europe.

Nataliia Zhukovska: Ms Liliia, you are the head of the «Women's Territory» organisation. What is this territory like?

Liliia Shevchenko: Our nationwide public organisation «Women's Territory» was founded by ideologically driven women who live and breathe Ukraine. This is not an empty phrase but the pure truth. «Women's Territory» is neither defined nor limited by borders. It is not only the territory of those residing in Ukraine but also the territory of women worldwide, especially now, when millions of Ukrainian women, fleeing war, have found temporary refuge in many European countries. We want to help them systematically. So, we decided that «Women's Territory» would now operate under the umbrella of the host country and its laws. Currently, work on the documents for «Women's Territory» in Poland is nearing completion. We have held talks with representatives from the Polish Ministry of Social Policy and with relocated Ukrainian businesses and Polish businesses. How will they help Ukrainian women in Poland? Primarily by organising Sunday schools. This is important so that children while learning about the culture of their host country, do not forget their Ukrainian heritage. Given that Ukraine is in a full-scale war and most funds from businesses and ministries are allocated to military needs, there is insufficient funding from the Ministry of Education for books and educational materials for children abroad. One of the tasks of «Women's Territory» is not only to establish Sunday schools but also to print books. We have already held talks with the «Gutenberg» publishing house. We will distribute books for free, starting with our Sunday schools.

We already have a developed base, so organising work in Poland will not be difficult. One of our members opened the first art school in Warsaw at the end of 2022 and has already received small grants from the local Polish authorities. The school offers free art classes to both Ukrainian and Polish children.

One of the messages of «Women's Territory» is that we not only take from the countries that shelter us but also give to them

We have provided Europe with qualified specialists. Due to the war in Ukraine, many educators, medical professionals and managers moved to the EU. Many of them have already had their diplomas recognised. For instance, our member, who led «Women's Territory» in Dnipro, now lives in Gdansk, has confirmed her qualifications, and is a qualified lawyer. Her mother also verified her diploma and works as a dentist. So, we offer our knowledge and services to the Polish people as well. We want the Poles to understand that they do not only give but also receive. This will also be one of the tasks of «Women's Territory» in Poland.

We will also focus on women's leadership and gender issues. A woman must understand her status and significance in society.

How has the organisation's work changed since the start of the full-scale war?

«Women's Territory» shifted 90 per cent towards volunteer activities. In Poland, for example, we partnered with several Polish foundations that had a 400-square-metre volunteer warehouse in Warsaw. We are grateful to the Poles for covering its rental costs for an extended period. It was packed to the ceiling with humanitarian aid, ranging from clothing and food to expensive medical supplies, which we distributed to Ukrainian hospitals. For example, we had diffuser devices, each costing around 2500 euros, with over a thousand in stock. We equipped hospitals with beds, X-ray machines, and vitamins. Both Ukrainians and Poles worked at the warehouse. We dispatched trucks loaded with aid based on recipients' requests and provided support to relocated family-type children's homes and care facilities for the elderly. We received tourniquets and body armour and raised funds for drones. We did not merely adapt to new challenges - we also helped others adapt to them.

Who are the members of your organisation?

There are around two thousand of us. There are women, heads of departments, who have their own public organisations and foundations. For example, our member is Iryna Mikhniuk - a widow, the wife of a fallen Hero of Ukraine. Since 2014, she has headed the organisation «Wings of the Eighth Hundred» - it consists of widows, wives of the fallen, and children. In Ukraine, there are already 19 officially registered branches of ours. The team includes women from various professions and financial backgrounds, but with a shared ideological mindset and vision. There are also military personnel, such as Viktoria Khrystenko, who was the first adviser to the Admiral of the Ukrainian Navy.

In my team, there is a board member of «Women's Territory» from Donetsk, Alina Khaletska, who was forced to flee her native city. Her family had a unique background. Her husband worked for the Donetsk administration, and she herself is a lecturer, professor and academician. They left everything behind when they fled. Upon arriving in Irpin, they worked hard to save money and eventually started purchasing a flat. Sadly, during the full-scale war, it was destroyed by an enemy shell. They endured the occupation in Irpin. In other words, they have lived through occupation twice in their lifetime. This woman was offered work abroad. Where do you think she is? In Irpin. She does not wish to leave Ukraine.

What problems do women approach you with?

Many women joined us when we became part of the coalition «Women, Peace, Security». These are activists fighting for women's leadership and supporting victims of violence. In Ukraine, this remains a major issue, especially in places like Bucha and Irpin. You are likely familiar with some of these stories. There is much I know but cannot share publicly. Our agreement is to not speak of experiences unless we were participants. I am a witness. These are stories lived by women, girls, or children. They share their stories themselves if they wish to. All stories are heavy. How do we support them? I always advocate for mutual assistance and supporting one another. It is crucial to speak with them very carefully, as every word can be traumatising.

We help them regain their footing, providing a sense of sisterhood and the reassurance that they are not alone - that we stand together

We stress that anyone could find themselves in a similar situation. Our message is one of solidarity. Sometimes, we involve these women in processes by seeking their help to show them they are needed. Engagement, even minimal, can serve as a distraction and relief. We have no formal programme for this, our approach has been refined over many years.

Additionally, through a memorandum of cooperation with municipal employment centres, we assist women in retraining and finding jobs. We collaborate closely with the Ministry of Veterans. Many of the women in «Women's Territory» are defenders who were once civilians. We were the first to help sew military uniforms and undergarments for women. We also sourced anatomical body armour specifically designed for them.

What has the organisation accomplished during its existence?

Our lives are now divided into «before» and «after» the full-scale war. Prior to it, we had a powerful project that united Ukrainian children living abroad. We also established the International Festival of Cultural and Creative Industries, known as «Women's Territory», which we later renamed «Masters' Territory». If not for the full-scale war, this festival would have received funding from the Ministry of Culture and Information Policy. It was a platform that elevated Ukrainian crafts, demonstrating that Ukrainian products are not merely sold at fairs and markets, but even in five-star hotels. For now, this project has been put on hold. Today, we focus on uniting Ukrainian women abroad.

We strive to ensure that Ukraine is not forgotten. Our initial focus is on registering «Women's Territory» in Poland and France. Next, we plan for Belgium, Switzerland, Germany and Spain

We have provided female defenders with over 1200 boxes containing first-aid kits, vitamins, special olive-based creams to prevent skin cracking and even perfumes.

Every woman should feel like a woman, no matter where she is. We even provided hair dye tailored to their colour types. Once, I asked the women to take photos for a media campaign to raise funds for these boxes. They sent back pictures - clean, with hairstyles and manicures. It turned out they had travelled to a district centre and, using their own money, found skilled manicure artists and hairdressers. They told me, «Lilia, when we opened these boxes, we felt like we were at home». You see, they received a psychological breath of happiness.

Your organisation has helped women with children evacuate from dangerous areas to avoid occupation. How did this happen, and how many people have you assisted?

We do not have exact numbers on how many people we have helped. We evacuated people from Melitopol, Berdyansk, Kherson, Donetsk region, and the left, already occupied, bank of the Zaporizhzhia region. Of course, we were assisted by the military. I am unsure if I am allowed to disclose the details of every rescue story. I will share one - the story of a mother with two children who were leaving Melitopol. At that time, her daughter was 15, and her son was three years old. Their father was in the Armed Forces of Ukraine. If the Russians had found this out, they would have been executed. She instructed her children to remain silent and, if necessary, to respond only in Russian. On their way, Russian soldiers armed with weapons boarded the bus to conduct checks. Approaching them, the muzzle of a rifle hanging on one soldier's shoulder accidentally pressed against the child's head. The boy was so terrified that he wets himself to this day. They were interrogated, their phone SIM cards were examined, and the family endured multiple rounds of hell. It later turned out they were fortunate that the child was not undressed. Only later did the mother notice a hidden sheet of A4 paper on her son's chest. On it was a drawing of his father in military uniform, with a flag and the words «Glory to Ukraine!». The boy had placed that drawing there himself. To him, it represented Ukraine, his life. If the Russians had seen that drawing, they would have been executed. We have many such stories.

Do you keep in touch with the families you have assisted?

Someday, I will revisit those lists. But for now, our priority is to officially establish «Women's Territory» in Europe and America. We are resilient, genuine, and active. We are women accustomed to giving, not taking. Perhaps in time, I will become more interested in the fates of those we have helped. However, I often question whether reaching out would be beneficial or if it might unintentionally bring harm.

You travel abroad frequently. What do you talk about there, how do foreigners react, and what interests them most?

I talk about the solidarity and resilience of the Ukrainian people. I share the harsh realities of war we face, the immense challenges, and our efforts to overcome them. My message is always framed to emphasise the need for support in these efforts. I say, «We are taking action, not standing by. Help us in this war in any way you can - through expertise, humanitarian aid, or military support». We consistently highlight the need to support the Ukrainian army, and I know our message is being heard.

«Women's Territory» supports prisoners of war and continuously participates in various campaigns. Do you believe these efforts contribute to exchanges?

Absolutely. We have been supporting the families of prisoners of war since the start of the war in 2014. We organise events with the mothers, wives, and children of captured marines. Do you remember those taken prisoner in Crimea at the beginning of the war? We brought the mother and daughter of one of the marines to the UN so that their speech could raise awareness and tell the truth about the war in Ukraine. Any information campaign must be planned and ongoing. Such initiatives not only ensure that the world does not forget those in captivity but also help the relatives of prisoners of war feel they are not alone, preventing them from being lost in their grief. Tragedy unites. We have many poignant stories related to the return of prisoners of war. Recently, there was a soldier on the list who had been eagerly awaited by everyone. They thought he had come back. However, it turned out it was not him. The surname was the same, but the first name was different.

You also conduct training sessions for government institutions on communication with veterans and their families. What are the key principles you focus on?

I will illustrate with the example of the Kyiv City Employment Centre. Engaging with a military veteran, a defender or a servicewoman, requires a particular approach. For instance, we - as empaths - often feel the urge to approach a soldier on the street and say, «Thank you for your service. Glory to Ukraine». We might want to hug them and say, «You are a hero!». Yet, almost none of this should be said or done. These are triggers. If you call them heroes, they often do not perceive themselves that way. This is why we educate not only employees of state institutions but also the civilian population. The most important thing is teaching how to understand and engage with these individuals. For example, when they come to the Kyiv City Employment Centre, the manager who interacts with them must be highly qualified and aware that every soldier might experience flashbacks. We train them to pay attention to facial expressions, eyes, and behaviour. Employees of such institutions must be prepared for any possible scenario because almost all soldiers have experienced concussions. Furthermore, there must be barrier-free access and inclusivity.

Veterans must be actively involved in rebuilding Ukraine after the war, not left idle at home

Sociologists warn of a crisis facing the country after the war, particularly a demographic one. Do you think Ukrainian women will return from Europe after the victory? What steps are needed to ensure this?

I am unsure if I can speak openly about this, but yes, we are facing a demographic crisis. A baby boom will not be enough to solve this. We are exploring solutions because it concerns our future. Will women return from abroad? The longer the full-scale war continues, the less likely it becomes. Many divorces are happening now. Numerous women have adapted to their children's needs, and most of these children are assimilating into the societies where they now live. We have already encountered such cases among my members. They lived abroad. The daughter wanted to return, but the son did not. He had adapted, made friends, and was better accepted in his class than he had been at home. He likes the new country.

We must understand that parents' decisions will be influenced by their children. Therefore, we need to prioritise working with children abroad

Moreover, many women abroad have managed to realise themselves better or earn more than they did at home. For example, she was a nurse in a hospital in western Ukraine, and now she works as a nurse in Wroclaw. In Poland, she earns significantly more. Our officials must listen to society and start developing a programme to bring Ukrainian women home today. «Women's Territory» will undoubtedly contribute to this effort, primarily with its experience and resources. After all, we live in this country - to defend, revive, and provide it with a future. Fortunately, the majority of «Women's Territory» members abroad understand this.

Volodymyr Nikulin is a policeman from the Main Department of the National Police in the Donetsk region and one of the main figures in the Oscar-winning documentary film «20 Days in Mariupol». He is the very person who enabled Mstyslav Chernov, Evgeniy Maloletka and Vasylysa Stepanenko’s team to escape from Mariupol and transport photo and video evidence of numerous Russian crimes - crossing about 15 checkpoints. In an interview with Sestry, Volodymyr talked about the tricks he used during the evacuation, his collaboration with renowned journalists, and how a packet of biscuits taught him that in life, everything returns: both good and evil.

«It was a blow to me how many of those I knew became traitors»

- I ended up in Mariupol after Donetsk, my home, was captured, - says Volodymyr Nikulin. - I have worked in law enforcement for over 30 years. I worked at the Donetsk Regional Police in 2014 during the epochal events. We were defending the Regional State Administration when there were attempts to seize it. I stayed in Donetsk even when it was almost captured. But in the summer of 2014, my family and I left our home. At that time, it was the only way to continue serving, which is very important to me.

It was especially difficult for me to accept that not all Ukrainian policemen left occupied Donetsk - not all remained loyal to their oath. I knew many of them personally, we served together. And they deliberately chose to become traitors.

Those who stayed in Donetsk switched to the enemy’s side. And those who did not betray ended up in Mariupol.

It is hard to talk about my home in Donetsk. I hope it is still standing. I have already left three homes: in Donetsk, Mariupol, and Myrnohrad. When we left Donetsk, I took nothing with me. I remember my summer mesh shoes, a uniform shirt with short sleeves. I did not even take trousers - I looked for a uniform at the place. But I had loyal comrades and a sense of freedom. Something that was no longer in Donetsk.

In Mariupol, we worked with a reduced team. Out of 120 employees of the regional police department, only 12 remained. When the police force was established, I, as a policeman, went through all the stages of lustration and re-certification. I often travelled to Avdiivka. I was amazed at how people lived there - under shellings. But they lived because there were still the state and freedom. Children played on the playgrounds, shops were open.

My comrade, after being wounded on the frontline, even bought a flat in Avdiivka. That is how much people loved their land and believed in victory

- Did you prepare for the full-scale war?

- In 2021, when we already had information from foreign intelligence that Russia was preparing, we also began our preparations. This helped us a great deal. In 2014, we lost a lot because we were unprepared and could not react quickly. In Mariupol, we did not allow that to happen again. For instance, the Russians did not get hold of any documents or cases when they occupied Mariupol. Nor did they seize any weapons. We had removed everything before the full-scale invasion began. There were also far fewer traitors than in Donetsk. We managed to maintain order as much as possible under such circumstances.

For us, Donetsk policemen, the war did not start in 2022 but in 2014. So, when I was woken at 5 AM on February 24th by my supervisor’s words, «combat alert», I understood everything immediately. It was painful to realise that the entire country was under attack.

«Every morning I prayed: just let the shells miss the building where my family is»

- What do you remember most about the first 20 days in Mariupol?

- I will never forget those days. Later, I will come to terms with them, or perhaps reassess them. But for now, I am still in the midst of the events. Do you hear? We are talking, but at the same time, there are explosions in the background. I am thinking about what to do and where to go after the shelling in Kramatorsk ends. There is no time to think about anything else. But I remember every day and every person who was with me.

The start of the large-scale war stands out in my memory as a creeping feeling of catastrophe. I could feel it in every cell of my body. Then I saw how the city began to be destroyed. The Russians were attacking Mariupol from all sides. We knew they desperately wanted it, but we resisted to avoid repeating Donetsk’s fate.

My wife and daughter decided to stay in Mariupol. My wife said: «I do not want it to be like in Donetsk. I do not want to flee anymore. I want to stay in my own home».

And every morning I would go to work, look at the building where my family remained, and fear that it was the last time I would see it intact

That was the most terrifying thing. Whenever there was shelling and explosions (and they were constant), I would think: «Please, just let it not hit the building where my family is».

As a policeman, I had a lot of work to do. First, I evacuated the documents. Then we gathered weapons, prepared materials for fortifications. And when the assault began, we helped people. The police stayed in the city until the very end. We delivered humanitarian aid, diapers, and found shelter for people. We connected people with doctors. At one point, we were already surrounded in the hospital. Before that, I had brought cookies to this hospital - round ones with fruit filling. And when we were hiding in the basement, the doctors brought us those very same cookies. That is how they came back to me.

- Do you regret staying in Mariupol for so long?

- Actually, I regret leaving. I really did not want to repeat the experience of my native Donetsk. Many people remained in Mariupol. They needed help. Mariupol was surrounded, bombed, and attacked. They did not give the locals a chance to leave the city. Everyone in Mariupol was then living on the edge - between life and death. Bombs from planes, missiles, artillery. Houses were burning down. The Russians deliberately destroyed everything to break the resistance.

They even hit the State Emergency Service (SES) headquarters so that rescuers could not help people. People died horrible deaths. For example, they hid in the basement of a building that was hit by shells, and they were buried under rubble. They could not get out. And there was no one to help - the SES was no longer operational. Doctors, under fire, were pulling people out. Heroes. And there are countless such stories. The number of victims was in the tens and hundreds of thousands. Civilians, children... Buried under rubble in basements. Later, the Russians did not bury the dead but simply took them somewhere.

We cannot even imagine what we will face when we liberate Mariupol…

«We looked at each other and understood - from now on, we would stick together»

- Do you remember how you met Mstyslav Chernov, Evgeniy Maloletka, and Vasylysa Stepanenko?

- We met during horrific events - when the Russians bombed the maternity hospital (March 9th 2022).

- I was impressed by this team. Mariupol was almost destroyed, and only the locals remained in the city. Then, I saw people with the word "Press" on their vests. They were wearing helmets and bulletproof vests. At first, I thought they were foreign journalists. To be honest, I was genuinely glad to see them. It was a somewhat selfish joy, but I am not ashamed because it gave me hope that what was happening to our city might become known to the world. The Russians are skilled at lying, and I was worried that they would conceal their crimes once again.

At first, I met Mstyslav. He said he was from Kharkiv. I asked: «How did you get here? Do you need any help?» He did not answer. We just looked at each other - and I understood that I would help them. Because it was necessary. Not just for them, but for me too. From that moment on, we were together.

The way they worked impressed me. Professional, precise, fearless. One of the most important tasks was sending the recorded materials. It was almost impossible under those conditions. Firstly, they had already become enemies in the eyes of the Russians. Secondly, there were very few places in the city with internet access. At first, we went to the city centre, where there was a Kyivstar base station. In the film, there are scenes of us arriving there, sitting under concrete stairs, while the Russians were bombing, and Mstyslav was sending the footage from his phone. When that location stopped working, we started going to the National Guard and Marine Corps command post, where there was a satellite network. It was a strategic site - policemen in uniform with guns. When we arrived to send the materials, everyone disconnected from the Wi-Fi at my request. They did not even ask questions. Everyone understood the importance of the information, which later influenced many around the world. In part, it contributed to the military aid we received.

«I did not know whether my smashed car would make it anywhere. But I started the engine - and we set off»

- We fought back as best we could. We celebrated every metre we reclaimed. When we managed to retake even one building, it felt like we had liberated the whole city.

On one side of the city, the Russians launched an attack on Mariupol from a hospital. I remember a sniper shot the head nurse in the neck. On the other side of the city, there was a tank assault. In one of the scenes in the film, a Russian tank hides behind a church. Then it came out and started shooting at buildings where people were sheltering.

A tank firing on civilians while hiding behind a church - that is Russia

I remember the eyes of the people who were hiding with us in the hospital. Among them were many elderly people and women, and they looked at us with pleading eyes, asking us to do something to stop them from being killed. I told everyone to stay away from the windows. I knew that if we tried to resist, we would all be shot. The Ukrainian Armed Forces special unit led us out of the encirclement. They saved us.

- When and how did you realise it was time to leave Mariupol?

- Events were unfolding rapidly. The Russians were not creating humanitarian corridors for Mariupol’s residents. On March 14th, people started trying to escape on their own. Security experts advised the journalists - Mstyslav, Evgeniy, and Vasylysa - to leave immediately. They began searching for ways out. I was not planning to leave Mariupol, but by then, we had become one team. Moreover, their first attempt to leave had failed. I felt that I had to stay with them until the end. So, I told them I would drive them out. And my family too.

Evgeniy Maloletka’s car, which the team drove into Mariupol on 24 February, was destroyed. My car had been smashed by «Grad» rockets, and none of the windows were intact. But it still moved. I did not know where it would take us. But I started the engine - and we set off. Now, part of my car is in a museum of journalism in Germany.

We took almost nothing with us. Just a small suitcase for my daughter and wife.

My packed things had been sitting in my flat since 2014 - I had never unpacked them

«My tricks worked because the soldiers at the checkpoints were inexperienced»

- We were travelling without knowing the way. I realised that it was not worth taking the main road. I had worked in criminal investigation, so I knew a few things. We headed towards the coast. But before that, we had to avoid the queue of cars in which others were leaving. There were long columns of vehicles waiting to exit. I knew we had to break through before sunset - only then did we have a chance to get the photos and videos out. So, I decided to shock people and suggested the following.

Mstyslav and Evgeniy, wearing helmets and bulletproof vests marked with Press, were running in front of our car. People saw journalists running, were shocked, did not know what was happening, and made way for us. Then Evgeniy sat on the car’s hood. This was also a way of attracting attention, and people let us through. That is how we made our way through the city. It was a huge risk. But the plan worked.

On the way, we passed through many checkpoints. If the Russians had checked even one of our bags, we would have been captured immediately. We had to ensure they did not search us. So, I acted like a detective. I distracted them. For example, at every checkpoint, I pulled out a pack of Marlboro cigarettes. Right in front of the occupiers, I would light up. This caught their attention. Then I would offer them cigarettes. They got distracted and let us through. This was just a small part of how I handled them. But it worked because the soldiers at the checkpoints were inexperienced. They were easier to deceive. It is frightening to think what could have happened if we had been stopped.

I remember a moment when we were driving in the evening without any lights, crossing the frontline. We turned off the headlights. At any moment, the column of vehicles we were moving with could have been shot at. That is how we passed through Polohy. Later, we reached another checkpoint where we were illuminated by a torch. And then I saw a soldier in a Ukrainian uniform. I got out of the car, approached him, and… hugged him. And he hugged me back. Without a word.

After that, we were stopped by the police, who checked our documents and the car. I was so full of adrenaline that I did not understand anything, but I felt a bit of relief. It is truly a miracle that we managed to escape.

- Do you dream of Mariupol?

- Not yet. I think the brain suppresses memories. Dreams happen when there is time for reflection. And I continue to serve in the Donetsk region. Wherever I am, I will continue to do so. Because this is my land…

Photos and videos from the hero’s private archive.

In 2024, Russia significantly expanded the network of «re-education camps» and increased the militarisation and indoctrination of abducted Ukrainian children. Each of these children, upon returning home, requires rehabilitation - receiving a complex of various forms of assistance. How many Ukrainian children were actually abducted by Russia, what they are taught in the «re-education camps», and what are the prospects for the return of deported Ukrainians - discussed in an interview with Olena Rozvadovska, the founder and head of «Voices of Children» Charitable Foundation.

Nataliia Zhukovska: On October 2nd, seven children aged between 3 and 14 were returned to Ukrainian-controlled territory. All of them were from the Kherson and Crimea regions. This was reported by the head of the Save Ukraine organisation, Mykola Kuleba. And at the end of September, according to the ombudsman Dmytro Lubinets, nine children were also returned home. How many Ukrainian children in total have been abducted by Russia?

‍Olena Rozvadovska: According to open sources, Russia has deported over 700 thousand people. The official figure from the Ukrainian authorities is around 20 thousand children. This is the number we rely on. However, it is impossible to state the exact number. Since the war continues, there might be one number of children today and another tomorrow. We also do not have access to the occupied territories or Russian territory.

What happens to Ukrainian children in Russia?

Recently, together with the public association «Ukrainian Network for Children's Rights», the NGO «Regional Human Rights Centre» prepared a report based on specific cases. Our part focused on children's psychological support and rehabilitation after their return. Speaking generally about what happens, according to the children, the scenarios vary.

In some cases, there is group deportation, and they are placed in various child-like camps in Crimea or on the territory of Russia and Belarus. It is known that in the occupied territories of Ukraine, processes are underway to deprive parents of their parental rights according to Russian legislation

Children can be taken under the pretext of so-called threats to life or health without further clarification. Afterwards, they can be placed in foster families. All of this is undoubtedly illegal and constitutes a war crime, which the Ukrainian side is documenting.

How does the process of «liberating» Ukrainian children take place?

Our foundation «Voices of Children» is not involved in the return of children. In fact, each case is individual. There is no return mechanism, just as there is no mechanism for prisoners of war. Generally, the official sides cannot agree on the return of a certain number of children home. This is not that type of case. Russia does not recognise the fact that these are abducted or deported children. According to the Russians, they are rescuing them from shelling. For them, this is a «humanitarian mission». We, however, understand that this is abduction, forced deportation and russification of the nation on RF territory.

As of today, it is the relatives of the child who is in Russia that go to retrieve them. Volunteers who work in coordination with the Ministry of Integration, the President's Office, the Ombudsman, and others assist them in their logistics. That is, the relatives themselves search for those children.

What is the greatest difficulty?

The greatest difficulty is that any person who goes to Russia for the child is in a high-risk zone. There is a chance that they may not return with the child because they could be detained. Moreover, the process always involves humiliating and difficult filtration procedures and an extensive number of various checks. The return process may take several weeks or even months. In one case documented in our report, a grandmother was ready to travel to Russia to get her granddaughter. The return of the child lasted 14 months. The woman faced 18-hour interrogations at the Russian border and threats. Russia hindered the process in every way possible. To delay the child’s exit from Russia, the grandmother was made part of a criminal case. The family was only reunited after a second attempt, and only after the girl’s mother reported the obstacles faced in returning the child at a UN Security Council meeting.

The logistics are also challenging. Typically, the journey to the occupied territories or Russia involves passing through several European countries

The difficulty lies in locating, verifying, and finding these children. It is all very monotonous and complex work. According to official statistics published on the «Children of War» website, 388 children have been returned to date. As you can see, the figure is not even in the thousands. The complexity lies in the fact that there is no organised return of, for example, an entire group of children from an institutional-type facility that was taken. However, the greatest difficulty is the time we lose every day. Children who were taken at 2,5 years of age are now 5,5 years old. They may not remember what happened to them. Moreover, for the child, this is already a trauma. The longer they remain in isolation and subjected to active brainwashing, the harder it becomes to bring them back. And we understand that this is exactly what Russia is doing.

And of course, when children end up in Russian families and are adopted, these cases are even more difficult. Imagine yourself as a little three-year-old girl. You are brought into a family, and you adapt. At that age, it does not matter where the child lives because they do not understand the situation they have ended up in. They simply live.

In your recent report, you mentioned over 5500 clubs of military-patriotic education and hundreds of «re-education camps» operating in Russia and Belarus. How exactly are Ukrainian children re-educated there? How does indoctrination occur?

This research was conducted by the Regional Human Rights Centre. Their specialists describe the patriotism lessons that the children go through. In the curriculum approved by the Russian Ministry of Education, Ukraine is not depicted as an independent and united state. According to our colleagues’ research, propaganda narratives are embedded not only in textbooks but are also imposed during extracurricular but mandatory classes such as «Conversations About Important Matters» and «Lessons of Courage». The «cadet and Cossack classes» operate within schools, aimed at preparing students for military service.

One manifestation of political indoctrination is the activities of so-called patriotic and military-patriotic movements

In Russia, so-called «re-education camps» also operate. Russia spares no expense on their operation. They are very professional in their information warfare. This machine is in full motion at every level. Every teacher, adult, and school administrator knows where to get the «correct» information that needs to be conveyed to the children. And even if someone turns on the television, they will find confirmation of everything they have already been told. In these camps, there is a system of so-called patriotic education. They introduce children to their «heroes», teach them, and sing the Russian anthem. In doing so, they erase national self-identity. The Russians' goal is to make Ukrainian children see themselves as part of the Russian people.

What methods does Russia use on Ukrainian children to make them literally forget that they are Ukrainians?

It is primarily about psychological and moral pressure. Our psychologist, who worked with a boy who was returned to Ukraine, also spoke about how he endured physical abuse and torture. I know that human rights defenders are recording even more severe and horrific cases. The hardest situation in Russia is for those children who openly demonstrate their pro-Ukrainian stance. They are constantly subjected to moral pressure and intimidation. The Russians calculated that the children would break. They were constantly told: «No one cares about you, no one will come for you. You have been forgotten. If you return, you will be recognised as collaborators or as those who worked with Russia and will be sent to prison». The children, not knowing whether it was true or not, thought: «Maybe I really will be imprisoned for being in Russia?». Any scary thought can take root in a stressed mind.

Freedom House, together with ZMINA. The Centre for Human Rights and the Regional Centre for Human Rights presented new evidence to the International Court regarding the direct involvement of the Lukashenko regime in the displacement, political indoctrination, and militarisation of education for over 2200 children from occupied Ukrainian territories. How can this evidence contribute to the return of Ukrainian children?

Firstly, it is about documenting violations. Cases in The Hague can take decades to review. Despite this, someone must continue documenting these violations. It is also about increasing international pressure. If no one speaks about this, documents it, or submits it, it may seem like the problem is resolved, and there are no issues. This needs to remain in the public domain and be discussed at various levels.

Of course, we would all like for this to be resolved in one day, and for Russia to be excluded even from the UN. However, we understand that it cannot be done so quickly

I believe that it is absolutely the right path for both state authorities and public organisations to continue working on documenting, collecting violations, and passing them on to the relevant institutions. As a result of documented violations, arrest warrants have been issued for Putin and Lvova-Belova. I am confident that Russian sanctions will only intensify. It is important not to grow tired of this work. Every Ukrainian, at their own level, must shout about the genocide that Russia is committing in today's world, right in the heart of Europe.

What is Ukraine doing to ensure that Russia is held accountable under international law for the abduction and illegal adoption of Ukrainian children?

Ukraine is doing everything within its power. International coalitions for the return of children are being created. International groups of prosecutors and investigators are working to document information on violations. Ukraine is regularly represented on various international platforms.

A wide range of measures are being taken to hold Russia accountable for its crimes - and not only those concerning children. It is unfortunate that these processes are not as swift as we would like them to be.

Your foundation, «Voices of Children», has been active since 2015. How have these «voices» changed since Russia's full-scale invasion?

Since 2015, I have been working as a volunteer with children in the east of the country along the entire frontline, and in 2019, we officially registered as a foundation. There have been many changes over nearly 10 years. In 2015, I was alone, but now our team consists of 220 people. The difference is that in 2015, the war was confined to two regions, but today it spans the entire country. Another change is that as of 2019, we had between 50 and 100 children under our care in various frontline locations and just one psychological support programme. It was very localised and targeted work. We travelled to remote villages where buses did not go. After 24 February 2022, when drones and missiles began flying across the whole of Ukraine, the format of our work changed drastically. The frontline today is more intense and much larger in scale.

Today, our centres are located in the largest cities along the frontline - from Chernihiv to Kharkiv, Zaporizhzhia, Dnipro, Kryvyi Rih, and Mykolaiv. It is not easy to work there due to the constant shelling. However, the children living there need socialisation. Their schooling is online, and they do not go anywhere - so our sessions are a small escape for them. War, whether large or small, always impacts children.

Why do parents return with their children to areas under shelling despite the danger?

It is hard to understand, but that is how it is. Everyone has their own story. You cannot say that all people have lost their minds about returning to dangerous cities and villages. That is not true! Sane, healthy, and thoughtful people are returning. The reasons vary greatly. Many simply could not settle elsewhere. People leave, spend all their money on renting accommodation, fail to find work, and return. This is the reality for many families. Some remain or return to dangerous regions because they have bedridden parents they cannot leave behind. That is why I never judge these people, although I am convinced that it is wrong to remain under shelling, especially with children.

How do you work with parents who refuse to evacuate with their children from dangerous zones?

It is a difficult process. If adults do not want to leave the area, they simply sign a refusal to evacuate. Parents bear primary responsibility for their children. Often, they refuse out of fear. Here, the state has not done enough to ensure that everyone has a clear understanding of where these people are going. They need to have at least some certainty in emergency situations. There is another group of parents who simply abuse their position and manipulate their children. Generally, these are the adults who do not take care of their children and are not interested in saving their mental health and lives. The state mechanisms must also work in these cases.

These children need to be removed. This is the job of social services, but it is not easy for them to work on the frontline. Many factors have come together to create the situation as it stands

I remember one story where we moved a family with three children from a frontline village and bought them a house in a rear area. A year later, they returned to their village. In this situation, there was nothing we could do because we do not have the right to remove children from their families.

What is the current psychological state of the children? Does it differ depending on where they live in Ukraine?

Various factors influence the psychological state of children. Certainly, the place of residence plays a role. There is a difference between living in Uzhhorod and living in Zaporizhzhia. These are two completely different realities. Obviously, the more dangerous the area of residence, the more threatening the situation for their mental health. However, much also depends on the family. A child senses the anxiety of adults. Parents are the window to the outside world for children. It is not just the rockets that scare them during war, but also their mother’s reaction to them. The presence of education, peer groups and opportunities for communication also have an impact on a child's mental health. Children in Kharkiv and Zaporizhzhia suffer greatly. Recently, we gathered children’s dreams in Zaporizhzhia, and one girl wrote: «I want this online schooling to finally end».

Our psychologists report that today, children are more frequently presenting with anxiety and depressive states, especially teenagers. Some children develop enuresis, hand tremors, and sleep disturbances. Others, due to stress or traumatic experiences, may exhibit eating behaviour disorders.

What do you think the state should do to work with children currently abroad, and how should they be brought back?

We understand that in addition to returning children abducted by Russia, we also need to work with those who are currently displaced abroad. Ukraine must be highly interested in ensuring that all working-age people, and not only children, return. For example, we often receive requests for online psychological assistance from parents abroad, as they are looking for Ukrainian-speaking specialists for their children. It is no secret that living abroad was a dream for some, but for many, it is not a fairytale.

A very large number of people dream of returning home. However, urging them to do so now is certainly wrong, as the war continues

For people to return, the economy must function, jobs need to be created, and education must develop. But first and foremost, the war must end with our victory.

Even the country with the best economy in the world cannot function normally when drones hit schools. It is abnormal and wrong. Today, hubs need to be created so that people abroad can still feel connected to Ukraine and remain within the Ukrainian information space. Moreover, we must constantly keep the world's attention focused and, of course, talk about the fact that Ukraine alone cannot counter Russian propaganda and stop such a powerful enemy.

Main photo: AA/ABACA/Abaca/East News